Sage's Vintage (East Texas)

Texas wine lovers, we have some incredible news. The fifth annual Texas wine auction was an absolute historic success, raising a phenomenal $306,811. Every single dollar raised goes directly towards supporting our local hospitality workers through wellness initiatives and funding essential programs that help the growth of the Texas wine industry. A massive thank you to everyone who attended, bid, and poured. To see the full impact report and stay involved, like and follow their social media for more news or head over to Texaswinotion.com.

So Custom Crush is a facility that can be leveraged by multiple wineries, winemakers, and wine brands.

I'm your wine guide, Scott, and I'm here to lead you on an auditory expedition to the vineyards and wineries across the great Lone Star State. Each episode will cover a different vineyard, winery, or wine-related business operating in Texas. You'll hear interviews, descriptions, and details about each location you'll excite you to visit and experience it for yourself. Ready to plan a wine tour? Use these episodes to choose the most interesting spots for you and your friends to check out. Most of all, enjoy hearing about the rapidly growing wine industry in the state and what makes our wines and wineries the best. And I want to welcome you again to another very special episode for Texas Wine Month here in October. And this is another bonus episode that I'm bringing to you today. And I'll get into the details of this episode in just a few moments. But before I dive into the heart of the episode, let's talk for just a second about a couple of upcoming events that are on my radar. The first being the Fredericksburg Food and Wine Festival, coming up on October 22nd to the 25th. And I'm going to be excited to be there at the October 24th Grand Tasting event at Market Plots in downtown Fredericksburg. I think it's the last event that they still have tickets available for. So make sure you go to that website and check it out and see if you can get your tickets if you haven't already. But I will be at that event. So if you are at the Grand Tasting event on October 24th, make sure and find me. Let's raise a glass together. And if you find me, I do have some special podcast stickers that I can give out to you. And I'd love to meet you at that event. Again, check their website to get your tickets. Also, as I mentioned last episode, there is another big event coming up for any people in the Austin area that are in the hospitality and beverage industry. The Texas Wine Growers are hosting an educational event that's aimed directly at industry professionals to help elevate and raise your Texas wine knowledge. This particular event will be led by Kelsey Kramer of the Hill Country Wine Academy. And she's going to help lead you through a curated tasting of different wines from nine different Texas-based wineries, along with some light bites to go along. And it's going to take place on Monday, November 9th at Han Agency in Austin. And you can get your tickets. They're $10 for ATX Psalm members and $20 for non-members. So head on over to the Texas Wine Growers November 9th event page to get all of the details and to register if you're an industry professional here in Austin that would like to attend that event. All right. For today's bonus episode, we are diving deep into the world of Sage's Vintage, a custom crush facility located here in Texas. And for the interview today, I am joined by Michael McClendon, also known as The Oracle, and his co-founder and partner, Wes Jensen. All right, now to get things started, custom crush is an interesting term that many of you may have heard of, you may not have heard of, but Sage's Vintage is what we call a custom crush facility. It's not a standard walk-in winery type tasting room, but they are behind many of the Texas brands and Texas wines that you may have been able to taste at many of our great Texas wineries throughout the state. And this facility is run by Michael McClendon, who holds a biology degree, and says he views wine as an unforgiving but very generous teacher. And his partner, Wes Jensen, who has a background in agribusiness and perennial crop management. And they started this venture together in 2017 in a dilapidated old dairy barn, proving that ingenuity, skill, and expertise matter way more than a very fancy facade out front. Now, what is Custom Crush, you might ask? Well, it is a business that provides essential manufacturing equipment, expertise, and professional oversight for wine brands who want to produce wine without having to go build their own costly production facilities. And Michael is really adamant on the fact that wine is not the type of product that can be just put on autopilot. It's more of a feel and a continually changing Rubik's Cube, as he says, that requires daily adjustments and problem solving. And many wineries either don't have the time or ability to do that, or they don't have the costly facilities needed to produce wine. So that's where Custom Crush comes in to help fill that gap. Michael and West produced many of the wines that are in the tasting rooms of a lot of the different wineries throughout the state. And they're able to produce the wines there at their location that are then sent to those wineries to be served in the tasting rooms. Now, in 2019, they expanded just a bit from that old dairy barn and really put a focus on maximizing efficiency, ensuring that they have more time to scrutinize, care for, and evaluate every tank of wine that they have in their facility. And they work hand in hand with their clients, the people at the different tasting rooms that are servicing their wines there to navigate things like vintage variation, managing fermentation choices, and to also help brands really identify what is their identity and what their portfolio direction should look like as a winery. And ultimately, their true goal is not about massive scale, as it is more about making the best possible impact on the Texas wine industry by helping these diverse creators tell their very unique stories through the juice and the wine in that bottle. Now, I got to go visit when I made my East Texas trip, and I got to sit down and enjoy a great conversation with the Oracle himself, Michael McClendon, and his partner in crime there, Wes Jensen. And I'm really excited to be able to share that conversation with you here today. One little bit of technical note, however, many of you know I did have a hard drive crash. And one of the fatalities, unfortunately, of that hard drive crash I suffered last month was part of the video of this interview. Luckily, all of the audio survived. However, the video file for the interview did get cut off about halfway through. So for those of you watching this on my YouTube channel, just know that the last half of the video will not be present, but the audio is still there. So stick with it because Michael and Wes have a lot of great things to say and share with us about Sage's Vintage and this custom crush operation that they've got going on. So let's go to that interview now. Howdy, Vine Trippers. So I'm sitting here at Sage's Vintage in Nacadoches, Texas. And they are a custom crush facility. So this is a little different than the standard uh episode where you have a walk-in winery and you go do your wine tasting and things like that. But it's a very vital part of this industry. And you might be surprised to know that many of the bottles that you drink actually have come through this facility and as they are being made. So I'm here today with Wes and with Michael, and we're gonna talk to them a little bit about their story and this location and kind of what they do here, and hopefully walk away with a better understanding of what Custom Crush is and how Sage's Vintage is really providing an incredible service to our Texas wine industry and those bottles you're drinking. So without further ado, I want to know how did you get into this crazy world of the wine industry?

Yeah, so uh I mean, I feel like I've kind of went through the ringer several times or spun this yarn, but I've um I came straight from university, um my degrees in biology with the Kim Minor. Okay, and uh interned at a winery and uh really, really enjoyed it, really loved it, you know. Um but since then I think that's you know there's there's such a that could be a whole story, but I think, you know, as far as like how did I get into the wine industry, a little bit more philosophical or or whatever is that now I think it's taken so many years of being yes in the industry to now be able to say like I am in the industry for these reasons or this is why, you know, why I am here. Um, you know, uh for really two big things, really because you know, I like to do fun stuff with my friends. Um, but then because you know, wine has become this great, this great teacher, this great learning place to figure out like who you are. You know, that sounds so like, oh my gosh, what's going on? It's real heavy. But, you know, man, there's you know, we talked a little bit earlier today about just giving grace, you know, throughout some of these things. Like sometimes wine is it's unforgiving, sometimes it's it's so generous, you know, and uh and you experience it all every year over and over again. And uh like it's uh it's a it's a cool thing, and so you know, into wine to share more people share with more people about wine. Yeah.

Wes? I slowly got into the industry through uh through a friend of mine that I went to college with. So I was going to SFA here in Nackyochis, I had a business degree, and uh he was a couple years ahead of me, had graduated and was working at a uh farming company in Tyler. And this company was doing perennial farming crops all over the country. So uh almonds, pistachios, wine grapes in California, apples, cherries, and wine grapes in Washington State, uh lemons in Yuma, Arizona, and the gambit of citrus in Florida. And uh through that connection, started working there. And that the money made from that business, uh, the owner put in a vineyard and started a winery. So we managed that vineyard there on site and planted most of those grapes. And so I gotta get got in from the production side. It's it's more like tripping and falling into the industry. The farming part was very fun, very challenging growing uh venifera grapes in East Texas. Um, learning how to do that and what a challenge it was, and we were successful to a point. And then uh left that after 13 years of working there. Moved, we're moving home. So my wife is from Lubbock and I'm from Nackyochis, and so we were we're looking for something we're gonna move home one way or the other. And uh I found a job here in Nackyoches in insurance. And uh since I knew the wine industry from that angle, I started selling insurance to wineries and then uh then was presented with its opportunity that as a custom crush in Texas, these there's a couple of customers that just wouldn't leave us alone. So like you guys need to start. You guys need to, you guys need to make wine, you guys need to do this for us. And looking at it, we look at the wine industry as three basic businesses, right? So you have your your vineyard part, your growing, your farming, which is a whole set of skills and time and effort and everything. And then you have your manufacturing, which so is the making of the wine, um, which is a whole different set of skills and time and effort, and then you have the sales side or the tasting room side. And so you combine all three of those and and it's it's a pretty big uh tall order for one person to do. So if we could from our experience in the wine industry, help some of these people with the actual production, because you get one shot a year. You harvest those grapes, you got one shot and don't mess it up because you don't get it for the next shot. So um, and I used to say, and I don't even know if that could be if it it could happen like this anymore, I used to say it's like this is probably gonna take you like five years to learn how to make wine really good. It's like first year is almost always everything goes right. Oh, I know how to do this, we can do this forever. And then and then the next year you get kicked in the teeth about three different ways, and uh uh and having lived through that working through and working in another winery, multiple I mean, there was 17 varieties in that winery, several seasons, and then being able to offer that expertise. That's how uh Sage's got started. I con I con Michael into coming over here and starting in this dilapidated old dairy barn.

It was a hard sell, you know. But it was there was we had been talking about it, like how do we how do we elicit change for the industry, mostly in our immediate region, right? Right. And um it would be great to do consulting, you know, to go and and be a consulting winemaker, but as you know very well that Texas is very large and it's it's kind of tough to get to all the places. So um we kicked the idea around of doing a custom crush, and then it was like, well, we just need a building to get started in. So we started here in that because we had access to um an old dairy barn. And it was it was not You were just looking for space at that point in time. And again, it's and it's kind of it's it's funny, it's you know, it's very serendipitous. We have always relied on our expertise and skill. And, you know, for a long time it just some of it you're just too dumb to know any better. But at the same time, like that's really what it what is it what it was about for us was that you know, we felt very confident, um, whether it's misplaced confidence or legitimate, uh, very confident that we could bring quality wine production solutions to this area, right? Or to our immediate neighbors at first. So building wasn't as important. Uh, we needed the right equipment. And again, T D's and knew how to figure some stuff out. And I mean, I think that's the the name of the game. Your ability to figure it out is such an undervalued skill set, um, oftentimes not even looked at as a skill set. Uh, you know, going through school, it would be your critical thinking ability. Um, where now there's so much of it that's you're it's more so on the ability to do the right inputs, you know, to get something out from the different um tools that we have nowadays, the digital tools, artificial intelligence, things like that. But critical thinking and problem solving is still huge uh in our industry, uh, because like was just saying, there's so many times you have to pivot. So the whole first year was basically pivoting, like, we'll figure it out. I know this we this didn't work, or we don't have this, or we don't have that. We'll figure it out. Um and and it did not necessarily help us that you know the building was not coming from a very established, very well-functioning winery, and knowing the wine industry, you know, in this window, making wine in a barn was less than glamorous, uh, but but very functional. We we had some success, we did well, um, and then continue to grow into where we are right now. But again, that same, I think, you know, we're we're having to figure out a whole lot of ingenuity. You know, not just us, the whole wine industry, um, alcohol beverages as a as a sector, you know, globally. Um, there's a whole lot of, you know, ingenuity having to come around and people having to figure some stuff out. So those skills are still uh serving us well.

Well, we we've kind of danced around it just a little bit. I know Wes, you kind of hit on it just a little bit there, but just for my viewers that maybe don't know what is Custom Crush, let's define what is a Custom Crush facility. Well, what is that process?

Absolutely. So Custom Crush is a facility that can be leveraged by multiple wineries, winemakers, and wine brands. Basically, a place that provides infrastructure. And especially what makes us different is that uh there's a lot of the on-site winemaker is providing a lot of guidance for the brands and and things that are happening here. Um, it's not a foreign concept and more established uh wine. I don't want to say established, thinking that Texas is not established. Right. More matured wine regions. Custom crush is not a foreign, foreign idea, you know. And um that's something that uh, you know, hopefully it's demystified for on the consumer side. You know, many people want to go, I want to see your vineyard. And they think that's what they automatically associate with like your vineyard and your winery and you're this and you're that. And where's where are the things and the stuff, you know? And and you do those things, they are endemic to our industry. And you gotta have grapes to have wine, you gotta have, you know, production space and facilities, and then you know, a tasting room or front-facing side if that's what if that's what you get into. But you gotta have those things. They don't always have to be at that specific site. And, you know, like I say, in in more uh matured wine regions, it's acceptable that, you know, we use the grapes from Beck Sophia or from Tocologne or what, you know, someone else's vineyard that's not right here where I'm at. And it's and it's then it becomes a conversation based on um individual stylistics and philosophies of production that make it unique and special to whomever that place person uh is. Yeah, right. Um wine is just a great conduit for that. And and so uh it's essentially go, I mean, on one end, you can really boil it down and make it kind of condense into like it's going to the paint store and picking out these buckets of the paints that I want, and they come from this place, and then you know, you take it to the the blend the the mixer and you mix it up and and you get you get your coat and your color of paint. Yeah. Um, obviously there is a lot more to it that goes on behind the scenes. This agreeable gray is really good in my class. Yeah, this I think this would be great. I mean, and sometimes, you know, that's what there's so much, even on our end, much of the Texas wine industry focuses on education. And we are no different, even when it comes to talking to a lot of our potential clients, as far as like, you know, I want one, I want this wine. Well, you can't have this wine. This wine belongs to someone else. If you like the components that comprise this wine, we can craft something like that for you, you know. Um, but you know, generally it's uh it's a little bit longer process. But again, it's because we want individuality, and that's for the consumer to get the bet the greatest benefit. You know, if if all of the wine just comes out of like three places, you know, and you think you're getting a bunch of diverse flavors and offerings, and it's the same wine and the same this and the same that.

Just different label.

Yeah, it's not as serving to the to the consumer, you know, especially whenever wine is a unique kind of club, you know, where there's the there's a certain cost of admission that is knowledge and understanding. Now you don't want it to be too heavy to where you can't go, you don't get people to come into wine, right? Um, but at the same time, that that's just the realities that we have to be able to say and know the the things. This is a temperanillo, this is Chen Blanc, this is Cabernet Sauvignon, this is a Rioja Base Red, or this is a you know, white Bordeaux, and what does that, you know, there's some there's some things you have to know. Um that maybe you're once you get into the club, they can take you to upper rooms and different spaces, but that information and knowledge base is something that we still share with a lot of our clients. It's just not there.

And and it fills a gap in that a lot of wineries and that all that production equipment is very expensive to try. To put in and you're building your tasting room and you're building all this stuff. So to be able to build maybe a tasting room, but to be able to offload the production here allows them to then still have a hand in it to be able to talk to you. So when you're making the wines, do you typically say, okay, I'm the chef in the kitchen and I make the wines? Kind of I'll make them the way you kind of want, like you were talking about a second ago. Or do you let other winemakers kind of come in and work their own wines here, but just use the equipment? Or how does that all work?

If they wanted to, there is ability to have access to come in. That's what I said. Like, I mean, like right now, as a custom crush, we've we have the on-site winemaker. You got me. You know what I'm saying? Like it's it's it's uh we are here, we're tasting these wines, we're going through them, we're hands-on. You know, so far, the the furthest in that we've got to gotten to where an external winemaker, they've sent protocols, sent their yeast, sent their these are the things that this is the recipe that I want. Correct. And I'm not gonna say recipe, I'm gonna I'm gonna look right at the right at the camera. Wine is not a recipe, it's more of a feel. There you go. Because there's certain things that are happening along the way that you have to be able to account for and adjust for, you know. But there's so many, there's so many people that have come to us and said, This is my recipe, or tell me the recipe. And it's expected to come out a certain exact way. It's not quite a recipe, or even, you know, that's the that's the beauty of it. That's why I say, like, it that's kind of why this industry is is held me in, is that you don't get the same starting points, you don't get the same um baseline to just, oh, I'll just put it on the autopilot and we'll we'll run harvest again this year, Wes, and we'll we'll do these things.

We did this wine last year. We know exactly how to do it, right? With vintage variation and the things that you have anyway.

All of that is in it, and it's uh it's a great, it's like a it's a continually moving Rubik's cube. Yeah. But that being said, could someone come in and and and work their wines here? Absolutely. You you have to be here in Acadotes to do that, you know. Um so many people elect to just let us, you know, yeah, do show. And they come check it every so often or absolutely. And we've we've even gotten to where for our continuity and process is that you have to come and taste your wine before we move to bottling. You know, um, you've got to get your stakeholders. At least that, if not many times in between. And that's usually how it goes. They like to come in and like the they they want to be a part of that. And that's something that you know sometimes is missing when it comes to um other methods of procurement for wines or not, or if if you don't own the infrastructure behind your brand, uh you don't always have the ability to to have it say so. Um, so we really we like the ability to to offer that to our clients.

So how does the process work? Do the wineries then have their fruits shipped here and you crush here, or do they send the the juice and totes, or how how does the whole functionality of it work for you guys?

Well, typically they'll have if they have a vineyard on site, they'll harvest and ship their fruit here to us. Um, and if they want us to make different wines, because we'll have them initially come in and and taste with our initial initial meeting. You know, come see our facility, see what we can do, taste, taste a lot of the wines that we have done. And uh, let's also find out what you like, what your style is, what you want to have in your tasting room, what you want to sell. And then we'll try to plug and play varieties that grow in Texas very well to what they're looking for. They come in and I want a cab, but what does cab mean to you? Because cab's growing all over the world and it's different everywhere. So what exactly does it mean to you? And then how do we it it could be they want a Napa cab just thick and heavy and and and that's great. Cab in Texas doesn't necessarily give that to you, but there are other varieties out there that can. So let's taste a couple of these and see which ones you like that might fill that slot. And then I'll typically go find the fruit for them if they don't already have connections, because we have connections with vineyards, a lot of them in the high plains, and contract that fruit and then bring that fruit in. And a lot of times by doing that, we could, you know, put several people together and on this one variety in this one vineyard and go get that fruit and have it trucked in. And then we could, we have in the past, we'll split that up and ferment differently and do all sorts of different things to get that same fruit from the same vineyard, have different nuanced notes for of the of the different uh tasting rooms that that we work for at winery. So we'll invite them in, like Michael said. We invite the it's open door. You want to come taste your wine? Come taste your wine whenever. Now it's not gonna taste like this right after it's been fermented. This we have to have that conversation because it's it's not even clear. It's not there's there's several different things, and it's you have to go through clarification. It's like, well, you've had it for a couple of weeks, it's ready to bottle and pick up, right? It's like no. So there is again some misconceptions, maybe. Yeah, it's and it's back to what Michael was talking about earlier. It's education and education about the process and and everything that actually goes into uh these tanks of wine that turns into bottles of wine.

When did y'all begin here? When did you open this facility in that dairy barn?

2017. 2017 for first season.

Okay. So about nine years here. And you gave me a tour before we started this interview, and I got to see the incredible production facility you have here. And you were talking, I think, Michael, a little bit about that. The you expanded a little bit. So, what has that process looked like over the years as you've grown to where you are today?

Yeah, I mean, it's uh really working to, like I say, started off. All right, we'll serve our immediate area. First year did about 5,000 gallons, I think. You know, second year, 5,600. And we had some success. I think uh I think in that first vintage, we had a couple of wines to get some belt buckles in Houston and you know, win some awards and and things like that. Um, and then again, just kind of the word is getting out, like I can take my fruit here, and and that's that's a big thing too. So it's still an ongoing place. How can you be the best servant to the industry? Um, but then we got even asking about Justin's email today. You got to figure out what it is that you're gonna do, you know, kind of how do you lock in, how do you find your spot. But what I what I mean by that is we wanted to make sure that we offered an adequate amount of services to the broadest range without losing identity, um, losing our individual identity and then losing their identity within the the Sage's house, right? So expanded in 2019. So we started in the old dairy barn. Like I said, that was just all about we're gonna figure it out, we believe in us, and work in those relationships. I know, I know these guys, I know Rusty and the, you know, I know some, you know, you know, you you know, different people that are gonna um help get started. Uh, and and especially, you know, we we spoke earlier about the industry is still growing and it's it's in a in a space where we're more sophisticated, but there's still lots more to learn, right? We we did our expansion from the dairy barn into what we felt like was gonna be a really sufficient facility for us. Um lots of trial and error. There's a lot of things that even you know that that are not exciting to talk about um that many people don't consider that are they can be very costly for the the winery, the winery side of it, and things that are that are you know we we may take for granted as a consumer, just that your label has a certain die cut to it, or that you know, it's it's a it's a front and back label instead of a one-piece label, or vice versa, some of these different things, you know, the ability to do as many techniques or maneuvers to give our clients the most, give us success, you give them the most success, right? Even beyond just on the packaging side of it, is you know, efficiency and production. If if we're more efficient, then your product is going to get more attention and time and subsequently we'll be increment or incrementally better. So you make these these incremental adjustments all over, and like much of what wine is is a there's a time component. And so if we can become more efficient in the things that we do, we can spend more time, you know, with these wines evaluating most of what we do is evaluation, you know. People you must sit around and drink wine all the time. That must be I agree. I think that's the best job you I could ever have. And it's like, you know, um I've seen all those tanks in there.

I know what you do with your spare time. It's it's right. Not drink wine is it.

I can tell you that. Um, but there's a lot of there's a lot of evaluation, there's a lot of uh really scrutinizing the product and seeing you know what's going on. There's some some beakers in the graduated cylinder out there on the on the top, you know, just going through some blends and what what's where is it at today? Like Wes is saying earlier, you know, when you taste at certain times, you're tasting for the future, taste to what it's going to be like, what it's anticipation, taste on its potential, you know, and then to see you make these decisions now, and we won't be able to see that result for another three, four, five, six months down the road or a year down the road. Uh, you know, making sure that the building itself was able to accommodate efficiency. We've got, you know, even the nice front-end space to make it comfortable for our clients when they come so we can conduct business properly. Um, we have a laboratory space to do um some some laboratory evaluations here. And, you know, just it it just needed to be functional. So a lot of it was aspirational. We're we're still growing into it. Like, don't don't get it twisted. Yeah, it looks great and it's all fancy and this and that, you know, but there's still some things that we're still just two dudes in a barn. Yeah. You know, um, you know, it it's it's the love of the game that's holding us here, right? You know, we really we feel passionately about the industry and and uh and want to make that the best impact, you know, um that that makes sense. And I think I use the word the best impact, not necessarily the biggest impact, the best, and that best is to be determined, still being built out, you know. Does it mean scaling up? Maybe there is more growth, maybe there isn't. Maybe it's, you know, pivoting into a certain space or place. So where we are in the industry is at a unique place where we're seeing a cohort not automatically come into wine. And understanding those barriers is important for the business side of it, obviously, because you need throughput. Winery's gotta be in operation, but but on the existential side of it is that there are people that are over there creating beautiful art. We want as many people to come and see it as possible or experience it, you know. And that's what that's what it is. It's it's someone's artistry. I gotta use that. I use that on purpose, talking about paint uh earlier. So, you know, you take your your paint palette and we go and we we we paint frescoes, but if no one's going off in to look up and see it, if everybody's looking somewhere else, then you know, no one's no one's checking that out. So it's important for us collectively to get more people involved with wine. And then also, I mean, that like the the other parts of it, it's a great social, you know, conduit. So um to bring people together and it's we provide the juice in there. Our clients they're telling a story and they're using wine to tell the story of their heritage, their pedigree, their ranch, their family's place, or that they that they just love wine, or that they have a venue, they don't have it. Man, we don't have a vineyard and we're never gonna have one, but we love wine. We want people to come and get together at this place and this and this and this, you know. I think all those things are really important.

Well, how does it feel to you're kind of a surrogate for um raising all these children that uh you then turn over to someone else to do with them? And uh it's kind of, I was thinking about that a moment ago, it's kind of dependent upon this is your masterpiece that you painted and created, but now you're depending upon someone else to then take that and get that in front of the people to see it and to do different things. What does that feel like when they start to win awards? Or maybe you have a wine you thought this is the greatest wine, but maybe it's just not doing as well because it's it's out of your control as to how it's presented or things like that. You see any of those kind of challenges, or have any share any of that excitement from the the win the awards and things like that? How does it feel when it's not your child?

I mean, it is your child, but it is, and we never get the I I can't say never, we never get recognized because a lot of our customers do is like, hey guys, we we we won this award and it was this wine that you guys did. There's no sage's vintage on the bottle for the most part, and we don't care that it's there is that we have to have sage's vintage on the bottle. That's that's not why we're here. We're we're the brain behind the the brains that we serve. I scour all of the uh competitions, yeah, and I'll look I was like who who's won awards and is there the wine that we made for them? And and so that's the competition season arrives. I'll I'll go look for all that and and I and I can try to keep track of it. I think I've gotten all of them. And then there's stuff that we've done stuff. There's some really good wines that we have produced and given to some customers, and we'll tell them it's like and get them to buy in on it. These are really good. Then they are you you should probably send this to competition, and then they just don't. And it's just like, man, yeah. That's for us, that's a little bit disappointing because we know that the they should do well in a competition, but it's it's also not our child. So we're just we run an orphanage, we try to get his kids out.

Well, the other side of the coin that I wanted to get to from the difficult question about seeing all your surrogate children was okay, so do you do you make and sell any of your own wines under a sage's vintage label or anything like that?

We just got started with uh front-facing stuff. Okay. Um and we we wrestled with that for a long time, and we still are making sure we do it with integrity as well. You don't want to dilute what you're doing. Correct. Um, so we've got a couple, we've got a couple of wines in some of the restaurants here locally. Okay. Um just, you know, it it's and it's we are ensuring first that um that our clients stuff, their their wines, their brands are are taken care of. In the event that you may have those few and far between, like, this is a banger. Why is no one jumping on this? You know, why is no one talking about this? You know, um, then it's like, well, let's let's let's jump in there, you know. But our bread and butter is still still, you know, custom crushed. But then also that being said, you know, part of the the growth and figuring out where we expand contract to, um it is important for us in the current climate to make sure that we are diversified enough to be able to keep throughput moving in here so that we can still be a service provider, you know? We gotta keep the lights on so we can still do it for other people.

Right. And to progress that through the industry. Correct. Well, let's talk about what does it look like? Because we're getting ready to ramp up here. Harvest time will be soon approaching, and you have so many different labels, so many different clients and things that you're working with. How do you manage with all of a sudden now you got fruit coming in from all over the state, from different things, different, and trying to put all those. I've seen your production room in there, really big facility. How do you manage? Okay, what's where and who this belongs to and all that? How do you keep all of that together?

So we've got uh we use a lot of prayers. That's what I knew. We do a lot of uh background work, a lot of scheduling, a lot of timing. We uh use many tools that we have. So Google Calendar, getting people lined up. Um, and that's again kind of some of the many new to us clients or suppliers, vineyard, vineyard operators. You know, they we've gotten some calls even recently. Yeah, I'll I'll probably have fruit ready in a couple of weeks. You know, this is this is our first time to make communication. We should have had this conversation maybe three months ago. It takes to space to manage. Um yeah. But you know, because just because of the nature where we are, we do have a little bit of space and we can we can accommodate some of that. But a little weapon right here and there. You know, we have a great software system as well. Okay that works for us where we are right now. We've used everything from Google, we've just pen and paper, you know, a spiral notebook or a bound notebook, um, spreadsheets to uh we had another software system. Budding software company getting into the industry. Uh it didn't have as much functionality or it didn't give us the ability to pull the information back out. Yeah. Um, so we we migrated software systems, and those are not small feats, even you know, doing that. Um, but then also on the same side of it. So that's the that's the that's how it really gets done. Um, a pretty answer, but also a legitimate answer. If you if you're good at what you do, then you know, just not a project. Just know it, you know. I don't know if you know this about me. I'm a big Ric Flair fan. So you know I don't I don't go down, I just stay up. But each wine has a signature as well, right? And so you start to know your kids. We're talking about our kids in there, you know them. Um, you start to know what they smell like. You walk through and you know what smells right and wrong is often here, especially during, let's talk about during harvest and fermentation. What a clean ferment smells like, what something that's problematic smells like. You you start to understand, like we say, we're tasting through these wines and tasting for where they're going to be, you know. So we're we're monitoring these things that it's happening. And then that's the beauty of once you learn the language or the code into the club of wine, we can start having conversations about vineyard variation. We can have conversations about vintage variation. So that's what you know, we always say it should tell the story of that that's the time and place. And it does, like you'll be like, Oh yeah, dude, I remember this one. I remember this, you know, I remember Phil bringing this in, and this, you know, all these different things. How do you keep track of it? Everything is labeled at the tank level, everything is backed up on a digital platform, but then everything is it has to go through the two gates before it something happens, you know.

And luckily, Texas has an extremely long harvest season. So, I mean, that's a double-edged sword. I say luckily, because there's we basically, it's such a large state. We have roughly four regions. I mean, you've got the Gulf Coast and you got the Upper East Texas, and you've got hill country, and then you got high plains, and well, those are all different, much less talking about the varieties that are grown there and and what the seasons are. Right. Or harvest season is. Um, so we'll we will start harvest here, and historically it's always been right around July 4th for Blanc du Bois. Well, the last couple of years it's been a week earlier, so it's it looks like it's gonna be a week earlier again. And then however long the season is in the high plains is is how long it'll stretch. So either September, October to the end of October, and that's harvest season. Yeah. So it's it's extended. Stuff coming in all the time. Yeah, and luckily not every day, but you know, it's it's it's okay. This bloc de bois is done now. That's the first variety that's come in. And so we can get that and then move it and get it out of the way before the next whites come in and or region or some of the you know Gulf Coast reds. We can get those in and get them out before we even get whites off the high plains. I say in and out of fermentation tanks. Sure.

Because I think to the average consumer, they don't understand. I mean, I I know I probably didn't, uh they understand the process of wine there, that they just kind of uh you you see the I Love Lucy, you know, stomping on the grapes and the thing, and then you ferment it and you put it in your bottle and it's ready to go, right? You don't understand the aging process, but even beyond the date, even before you get to the aging process, the fermentation process, that there's daily choices of the way you guide that ship and steer it, like you said, to where it's gonna be, not where it's at right now, but where it's gonna be. And as those changes come up, those daily choices are coming up. How do you work with do do most of the wineries kind of just rely on your expertise to take it if you're trying to hit their profile that they're going for, trust you to make those daily choices, or do they want input on it, or is it kind of a mix of things?

They're letting letting us make those decisions. And uh, you know, a lot of it is kind of uh a dance, like the idea of how you how do you come into U an agreement with Sage's Vintage, and it's it's oftentimes it's taste this wine. Do you just like we said earlier, taste this wine? Do you like this wine? Do you would you like a wine like this? And then knowing how to get there, you know, we can reverse engineer it this way, understanding that, okay, you like a more fruit forward wine, you like a a more lean style white, you know, we want to make sure that we um are cold and clean and this and this or whatever, you know, uh to keep it, to keep it more angular, you know, more acid backbone or whatever it is, you know. So kind of having those conversations. Also, that's a big part of the discovery conversation. You know, let's taste through some stuff and we'll listen and ask you to describe the wines so that we can start speaking the same language. Because oftentimes the nomenclature varies. Yeah. If I say a wine, I want a wine that's lean, I just use that language. What does that mean? Right.

Um, you know.

I like I like a bold wine. It's what does bold mean? What does boldness are we talking? Right. Does it mean you want to have the alcohol? What do you want? What do you want here? Um, so really sweet. Yeah. I like it pulled. What does off-dry mean to you? So getting some some commonality over a few um baseline wires really helps. And then once we've established that, now we know how to go and you both know where the finish line is that you're headed to. Right. So we can we will get a yeast protocol together. We'll um we have a nutrient protocol. Uh obviously, all that just like Mike Tyson said, you know, everybody has a plan to get punched in the mouth. That depends on what starts coming in. Yeah. You know, um, you have to do some some pivoting and some rolling, but uh then this that's where the let's get back together after harvest or after fermentation, um, after crush season. Let's taste where we are. Here's where the wine is at, here's where I think we can go, or how do you feel about this where we are right now? And even then it's still they're relying on us because it's it's difficult to taste unfinished wines, you know. And so you have to go through several seasons to really experience that. Experience tasting those unfinished wines, tasting it, you know, really cloudy with the leaves still in there, and you know, so you seem to think about mouthfeel with a lot of this solid removed, and um, you know, just it it's diff it's different. Yeah. Um, and it and it can be a challenge.

So we've had clients tell us it's like first season, I just I thought this was terrible. I mean, it was just an unfinished wine, and once they get through the whole season of this is what it tasted like here and here and here, and then it's your finished wine, and then they'll come back the second season. Well, I remember last year I didn't like it here, but I picked up the notes that we ended up with here, so now I'm just looking for that. And it's like that's what we're supposed to be doing.

Yeah, to understand what it should taste like at those different places. You know, one of the things that struck me was you know, if you have a typical, you know, winery, you know, winemaker production facility, and they've got four or five varietals, six, seven varietals, something they work with, and they're working with these same things, you're kind of limited to that. Like you said, you get one time a year, you know, and you do this. But with you guys, the benefit is I'm sure with working with all these labels and all these things, you get to work the leverage of experience that they're getting from the two of you from all the different varietals that you've touched to work with, all the varieties of styles of wine to things like that. Uh, you told me earlier you do sparkling here as well. I mean, you you may only get to do it once a year, but you're almost getting from a traditional winemaker multiple experiences through all these different labels and varieties of styles.

That's I mean, that's that's essentially it is like you get to tap into a breadth of knowledge, you know, that happens. And I mean, it that on our end, it's a little masochistic probably, but it's you know, it's that inquisitive nature of wanting to very much so. You just love I we love the back end part of it. We talked about that a little bit earlier. Like this part of it is really cool and really fun. I like to do fun stuff with my friends, you know. That's that's essentially it. And then you go, you get with other winemakers, and you're like, hey man, try this or try that. And it's it is fun. It is very much fun, um, you know, to to do this stuff. But from the from people who may work with us, is they get to tap into that much experience, you know. And then on top of all of that, is that the consumer is who we hope to all that ultimately benefits, you know, to be able to say, well, this came from a place that they're able to produce a 60 case lot, but they make, you know, they've crushed over 200 tons this year. But I, you know, I got a lot that was unique to my place, my favorite little, you know, small winery that's their fruit or their, you know, it's their vineyard or it's their whatever. So that that's about you know part of them being able to leverage not just the infrastructure and equipment, but then the expertise.

Yeah. Well, as you do get to work with a ton of varietals and things like that, as do people bring something in. As a winemaker, is there a wine that a varietal or something that you really love working with that you kind of get excited, like, oh, good, we're getting some of this fruit. I really am excited about this wine or this profile that I'm gonna be creating. Or do you have some favorites or some things like that that are just fun to work with?

I love them all for who they are, where they are. Okay. When they are. Fair. I mean, there's some things that are just challenging that and it it's uh, you know, the the longer that you're in the industry, the more that the phrase fall in love with the process, like is like a thing. Okay, you know, because it's uh we're we're putting together a mosaic. Right. So this vintage just tells its own story, but it's part of this bigger picture. Yeah, there's some things that you're excited about that you're like, man, that's super cool. Or I hope we get a chance to do that again. Yeah. Um, and there's some stuff that's been like, man, we haven't had a chance to do it, we haven't had, we only got that once. And I want to ask for that again, and that was a one-off, or we we had to fight to get it back, or you know, it's been six seasons since we got that, or whatever. Those things exist, but sometimes you have to learn how to take your emotion out of it and accept it for what it what it is or was in that in this moment right here. Yeah. Right. Um, and and some of it is like you get your tail handed to you because it was a tough year, a tough vintage, or tough variety, or whatever. But if you stay in it long enough, then it becomes like, dude, I remember that. And I can pull from that experience to say, if you want that, we can do it, but I'd recommend uh going this direction or whatever. Yeah. Um, you learn you learn about your limitations. You're like, hey, listen, I'm I can do a whole bunch of stuff, but I won't do that, you know.

I may be the oracle, but I'm not necessarily a magic worker.

Right, right. Yeah. There's there's some there's some limitations here. Yeah. There are things that are part of a a different story. You know, we're still figuring out what works well for us, what doesn't work well for us, what is working in general, just from a perspective of, you know, when you think about Bordeaux experiencing global warming or climate change, they they are playing more warm climate varieties. What's happening? What have we seen, you know, in in the last 10 years or so in the industry? What has longevity talking to growers? What has longevity? What should we be leaning into? What is the consumer like? Where is the consumer at? Sometimes the metrics for Texas are different on the consumer side. Like it was weird, I think, you know, leading up to let's say midway through 2025. And it the metrics are still there. They it says that, you know, we consume more reds, reds dominate Texas. Reds is the way to go. Reds, reds, reds, reds, reds. From what we see, big rush on whites and roses came in. Like, but that makes sense that tracks, because it's hot outside all the time, but it's, you know, there was there was kind of and there was kind of a lull, you know, where people weren't asking for them in their portfolio as much. But then into 25 to e to now, it's been this big ask for whites and roses. Uh so you know, I think as far as a favorite thing, it's really everything is unique and different. Uh, even if it's something that I don't love or am not convicted by, I'm not gonna name any names.

But you know, if there's if there are varieties that just you don't feel like are good for the market or are gonna really the best direction, right? You know, you're still gonna give it your all.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, because that's what it it it deserves the best chance, yeah, you know, to try to try to figure out some of the other hybrids. Um, we worked with many of the other hybrids, you know, they can be a challenge. So it's it's I say a challenge because it's taken take yourself out of the way instead of trying to pound this and to make it make it like this, and it's gonna be this big red or it's gonna be the this or it's that or whatever. It's like, yep, it's not that's not what the wine is showing you. Move it in a way that makes the most sense for where it's at, you know. So it's just some of that takes maturity and and some temperance, you know, on your end too.

Well, when you're working with clients, I mean it's about what the client wants. And even if you maybe disagree with it a little bit, you can maybe guide it in a certain way, but you're still trying to provide the product. Can you, Scott? Can you guide it? Well, you're the oracle. I don't know.

No, I mean that that part of it is different too. So that's uh that's where again, let's taste the let's taste the things. Like some some stuff is not it's just not possible, you know.

So being able to like let's do a side by side and talk about Do you give them the client in those situations like, okay, here's some options. Like, here's where the wine is right now. And and if we go with these options, it might take us in this direction. But if you go this way, it could go that and kind of give them the options of where to go.

Sometimes and yes, most of the time, it's usually it comes up as a question of like, these are the options. And I mean, it's been as extreme as like, what if we make that into a rose? Well, that that ship is sailed. Yeah, right. That we have to answer that question right, you know, within the first 24 hours. Like that, that's done. You know, it's it's more so figuring out how to kindly and amicably explain here's where here's where we are, how we've gotten to this point, you know. Uh, so that next season we can have we can start this conversation a little bit earlier. Right. Um, but yeah, there's they're also sometimes like, hey, you can go this way or this way. We we pose those questions to them. Think about how this wine will fit into your portfolio. How will you utilize this wine to tell your story? Um, you know, just because you really love it, is that the wine that you need right now?

Um do you already have one that is like it? Oh, yeah. Diversification. And are you gonna bring something in that's gonna steal the sales of that category? Maybe you need something that's you don't want to dilute.

That was the thing. Like, I think I what's resonated with me for probably like 12 years. Guy from Washington State, he came down and I was really excited about these wines. Pinot gris, or Sauvignon Blanc, dry muscat, this and this, and this. And like, we got look at yeah, look at this diversity of wines here. And and he's like, you know, yeah, dry crisp white. You got them all. What else do you got? And I'm like, you don't see, look what I have done here. Like, look, come on, give me some credit over it. And he's like, I mean, they're all dry crisp white, they all fit the same space, same profile, right? You did a great job on them, you know. So I think that's really important to to keep that in mind from the consumer, yeah, depending on their level. You know, if if you're really into wine, Pinot Grision, Savien Blanc are like the East and the West.

But to the average consumer, right, you know, dry crisp white.

So so figuring out really what it what that wine does for your portfolio is really important. So we try to communicate that.

And almost like stocks or investments, you know, having a diversification of different things in a portfolio, the wines that fit certain, and like you said, knowing your consumer, what are they looking for? What are those taste profiles that they're coming into your winery for? Absolutely. And how does the wine meet those particular spots? Interesting.

That's a different perspective that is it's less romantic when we think about wine or going to a winery. Um, but I hope that it gives the consumer some comfort knowing that the things that happened at this place happened within with intention. Yeah. You know, somebody meant to do it. It wasn't just like, well, let's just put these wines out there because it's fun, man. I mean, you know, it yes, it's fun, but there's also there's some intention when it comes to doing it, you know. Somewhere along the way, there were some decisions that were made that you weren't even thinking about. Right. You know, either are they picking it right now today, or they are they're gonna let it hang a week to try to see if they can, you know, get some more out of it. But there's a chance there's gonna be some rain. Are they gonna roll the dice? What's gonna happen? You know, is it gonna get on the road at 2 a.m. to be able to get to where it's going at at 8 a.m.? Or what's gonna happen, you know? Yeah. Um, lots of decisions that are made that the consumer probably doesn't know about. But but I hope that they appreciate, even if they just say, This is good, when you give that compliment of this is good or I like this or this is my favorite winery, there's a lot that went behind it, you know. A lot of high fives that happen, like, yes, all right. I think it makes the wine. I think it you know it makes it, you know, fantastic. Um, but you know, by itself, sometimes those things aren't they're not easily grasped.

I'm gonna kind of switch directions here for just a second. So you guys have hosted the Sage's Symposium here, and I kind of wanted to know a little bit about what that's all about. Tell us a little bit about that event, and then what are some of the trends and the topics and things like that among Texas producers that you've been kind of seeing and talking about?

So we we put on a symposium uh every year. We did not do it this year, um, but our symposium, so we didn't do it this year because we're again trying to be sensitive to the industry or where we are right now. We didn't want to hang another charge on people. What we did, we actually took to the road and went to go see many of our clients and went to some of their festivals and things like that. So just kind of being a being a good partner, yeah, you know, whatever that means and looks like. Um, but we love our symposium. So we have had um, we've had, we've had Ron Yates, we've had Dub Lewis, we've had Chris Brandret. Chris Brandret. So we we try to we try to bring what we feel like is world-class or big concept information in a more intimate setting. Okay. It's it's very informed. It's everything from we've talked about competitions, we've had some members from Texom come. We've had James and Amy both actually come. Not at the same time. Not at the same time, but talking about how do you leverage competitions or what what do you do at competitions, talked about what uh master psalms want to see on on restaurant lists, you know, how you, you know, because those are questions that from the industry, I don't think they really judge my wines at these competitions. And it's like, yeah, they really do. You know, it really gets and it gets a fair shake. And it means something. There's integrity that goes into all these different things. Or uh we've had different uh viticulturalists come out and talk about things that they see and things that are going on. Um, whether it be here's where the state of the industry is right now, or Kane versus Spur Priming. Um, we've had When's a good time to harvest? Yeah, when's a good yeah, considering we've had some great like legacy brand owners, uh so Katie Jane Seaton from the Farmhouse, we've had uh Karen Bonarigo, and they're just talking about here's here's an arc of what it's been like in owning a winery. That's a big conversation, you know. Um, it's kind of like I would say analogous to not necessarily the same. It's it's more of just using it as a descriptor. But if you were to get a pet lizard, monitor lizard or something like that, that's gonna live for like 80 years or something, it's a different conversation than like I just want to get um yeah, I thought it'd be cute. I and that's like a hermit crab. Right. You know, and there's so many people that that sometimes venture into the industry that are just like I just thought it'd be really cool to have my own wine and have a label. Yeah, this is what it looks like when it gets when it gets challenging. This is what it looks like when you have a snowmageddon. This is what it looks like when you have lose all your crop to hell. What do you do? Or you know, I I think I think John Robinberg used to always say, so you want to be a winemaker, you know, all that kind of stuff. All these different things, they come to mind. So we try to condense many of these different ideas uh at symposium. We've had we've had representation from uh G3, their supplier of cork. So we've had a great Dion presentation. Uh we've had Tuppy Creative, we've had, we've had a lot of people. I can keep going name, name, name, name, name. Yeah. But um, it's a great service in in in my opinion. I think you know, we we enjoy it. Um the idea is to, again, like I say, just to to bring in um expertise and industry knowledge. Um, we've been fortunate enough to have kicked around the industry for a long time so we can it end up being just tapping our friends and saying, hey man, yeah, come and say some words.

Got some good connections here. Um fortunate enough to make some really good relationships with some some really good folks that might present at a larger conference, but this is a more smaller setting, so it's a little easier for people to ask questions and that they might not get a chance to really pick brains and right yeah, go in depth on things and maybe get to in a surface level conversation. Typically, our our first afternoon is here in the winery. Okay, we'll talk about our season and whatever is going on, but then we bring somebody on and it turns it turns into that open forum where it becomes more of a discussion with the audience and the speaker, and they can share their experience, and then the crowd can also share their experiences with each other. So that has been a key component that's really fun to watch happen. It's like rising tide raises all ships. Yeah.

And is that something y'all see continue? I know you said you took a break from it, but you see something continuing that down the road.

Oh, yeah. We had we had a couple of speakers lined up, you know, this year, but and we had subsequently a lot of people asking. So, did I miss it? Where's it gonna happen? What are you gonna eat? So then it's it's tough because I again putting more costs on clients or on people whenever the industry is going through kind of a jilt, um, is not what we really wanted to do. So, uh, or or make it a burden, you know. We don't want it to be a burden, we're like, gosh, yeah, I gotta try to go to this comedy. Yeah. We wanted to feel still comfortable, you know. We we ended up doing, I guess, in place of it, timeline-wise, because like we still have to do the stuff and the things. We did like a soft front-facing type of event here, just getting some feedback locally from consumers and and non-consumers. Um I think again, back to like being able to provide and turn over that information to to our clients, you know, as far as like, how do I get people in my tasting room, or how do I get, you know, how don't you know what's what's going on, or what what do you see so we can speak more intelligently? Um with with the more from it's still an educated guess. Right. Don't get me wrong. But um there at least are a few data points or reference points that go that go with here's what we see in the industry. Right. You asked about the the the other part of that you still having symposium. What trends do you see in the industry?

There's a trend in the industry. Yeah. This one's kind of a hard one. It's it's different for us because we're in the business serving industry. So are we seeing probably more wine brands that want to sell direct in a store or you know, at farmers markets or and they're all very good at what they do. They know what they want, but it's also a smaller customer, so they're you know, trying to as opposed to a winery with a tasting room. Correct. And uh probably the consumption across the state. I mean, wine isn't gone. Yes, we take in a downturn, but the the tasting rooms that have pivoted and done more events and tried to get just done something different seem to be weathering the storm quite well. And the ones that are just no, I built this place, they should just show up. You know, that's just a field of dreams. They're yeah, they're I mean, for several years, that's all it took. Yeah. I mean, you you built the place and threw uh yeah, I have a wine sign out there from the Texas Highway Department, and it's like a little green winery sign. It's like that's all it took. And then and you could be selling wine. And then the the difference between like the T90 corridor where there's a high concentration of wineries, and then the rest of the state, you know, North Texas is coming on, they're pulling a lot of those customers out of the DFW area that now aren't going down to the hill country because some things have you know it's gotten expensive, or you know, it's just things are tighter. I can just drive out for an hour and go hit three or four wineries and come home. You know, they don't have to spend money on a BB. You know, all that, all that's happening, and there's different dynamics happening everywhere. Um, but it it's a little bit of a shift because there's a little bit of a strength.

There's a little bit of a shift on on what's happening across the whole the whole industry. It's like someone's becoming the Sonoma to our Napa Valley of the Hill Country.

Yeah.

Yeah. Kind of that's that's actually pretty that's pretty solid.

Well they're I mean they're they're proud of it, the North Texas wineries, and they're and they're they're they're doing they're gunning for you know Hill Country, 290 Fredericksburg area. It's like, yeah, y'all are I wouldn't say they're gunning for them.

There's more than enough love to go around for all it's Texas pride, right?

I mean there's competition still. I mean there's cooperation, but there's competition.

There's always going to be some sort of Texas pride. It is it friendly? Yes. But but there's still, I mean, it's we're the new area, they're beating their chest, and it's that's great. Go for it.

The consumer is who wins.

There's no that's right, absolutely.

There's no no losers in that ballgame. But the consumer just needs to know this, like, there's no when it comes to wine, there's not bad wines in Texas, not bad places. Like we want them to have as many opportunities to experience Texas wine as possible. Sure. You know, whether it be because you went and you got unique terrois of the hill country, or what's going on in North Texas, and it's much more close to you, or you have scenic locations here in East Texas, you know. The high plains and right. So that whole area. It's that's the that's the messaging. Yes, that's what the consumer needs to know.

Well, what would you say is the future of Sage's Vintage? Where what do you see? Do you see future expansions? Do you see other things that you want to provide or offer or things like that? What would where do you think you're headed?

I think we're headed to infinity and also to beyond is where we're headed. No, I think, you know, right now we we want to be able to provide the best amount of service to our clients. Um we've had some conversations with some some other potential partners uh as far as like doing some doing some, I guess it would be outreach through wine. That means making more wine for people. We're doing some more outreach. Um, you know, putting more wines in bottles and some unique things, some of those, maybe some of those similar, you know, beverage propositions. But at the same time, it's we have to figure out what makes sense for us, what looks right. What keeps giving us the you know, year one, 3 a.m., standing by the backs of the pickups and saying, Mike, it's fun making wine with you. Well, it's fun making wine with you, you know. And like is as long as we still, you know, have that same thing in there, you know, we'll keep riding it out. We're gonna, as far as like you asking for a straight answer, that's more like philosophical, but straight answer, we're gonna continue to develop our sparkling program. You know, it's something that's been good for us. Uh, we're a couple of vintages in on it. Uh, we feel very confident in being able to provide that service. As far as footprint, you know, I think we're gonna be here. We have space to continue to grow uh inside the footprint that we're in. Like I said, we're doing a little bit of front-facing work through our Lanana brand and just kind of just seeing how that goes. But, you know, something that we're also working on just trying to be more mindful or integrated into trying to understand better the different tier level of participants in the industry. Some things we just maybe can't do for our production volume. I mean, that's that's a conversation we'd even talk about. Like you see the size of tanks and you see the size of equipment. Scaling down is is difficult, you know. So uh we yes, we want to be able to help as many people as possible, but sometimes scaling down is a challenge. From a winemaking perspective, you know, a small batch has much more risk for me than uh than a larger batch does. Um, you would think it'd be inverse, but it's but it's not. So identifying where we can be the most efficacious. I just wanted to use that word right there. So I did it. Uh, but where we can have the most the most impact and and be consistent. So scaling properly, equipment-wise, you know, I don't know. We haven't really talked about, you know, getting a new thing or, you know, we just want to figure out what we got. Yeah. Kind of right now. We got a short list. Yeah, we've talked about some, you know, like tools, you know, more so like, you know, but nothing major upgrades and things like that.

Yeah, on air. Well, we've kind of talked a little bit about the consumer and a lot of this process. And you guys, as you mentioned, are really more of a B2B. You're more of a business-to-business type of producer. Um, so just to kind of address maybe people, uh, maybe an aspiring wine producer, uh, what would you say if some they needed to use your services? What would what's the best piece of advice you would give to an aspiring wine producer who really wants to come in and maybe utilize your services before they schedule their first meeting with you?

Do a little bit of homework because there's a mountain of it. And if you're new or have never been involved in the industry at all, it's completely different. So if you have government regulations and regulatory organizations that you're gonna have to take care of and understand what that means. Also, a means of sale, where are you gonna go with their product? I mean, yes, we can make you a wine and we can make you a good wine. But if you don't have a way to get it out and get it sold, then we just made you a wine.

Channels of distribution, correct.

You know, then you know, uh almost have a business plan. We don't necessarily have to see a business plan, but you need to have a plan. So that's that's it's part of it. Um, and then educate yourself a little bit on the varieties that grow well in Texas. Now that's not gonna be very easy to do. Texas grows 86 varieties, right? Now, a lot of them, and we touched on it earlier, it's it's we're gonna plant this and see if it grows, and the winery gets it, and they make this wine and it sells and they create a following for it, but it doesn't do well in the vineyard, so they end up replanting it, and it's just it's a a constant cycle. Variety probably shouldn't be grown here, but now we've already created this market, and so now we're just we're doing this. But it works, maybe it'll all settle itself out later. But but picking those varieties and learning what variety is gonna fit those different slots that that you're gonna want to carry, right? Do you want to do you want a you know, sweet red, or do you want a big bold red, or do you want smooth, smooth cells, a light sweet, do you want a rose? Do you you know what how many wines do you want to carry? And again, all about the the business plan. Who do you want to be as a winery? This particular winery that this bottle came from, he's like, I'm only gonna sell dry wines and only gonna be like this. And if you don't like that, go down the street. Now, there's not a lot of winery owners that have that attitude because it's they love the crowd, they love the people, they want to have something that they want a wider portfolio. Right. Wider portfolio to meet who these people are that are walking in. I get it. That's fine. Just understand you have to have a wider portfolio. What's your identity? Right. So bring that to the table. Yeah. And let us help you. Know who you are before you come in. That would be helpful. Yeah. Because sometimes we help them find who they are.

Okay. After their year. We always help them find who they are. That's why they come and sit with us.

Yeah, I would imagine you probably have some that come in with an idea of who they want to be, but through the winemaking process, realize wait, this is more who I feel like I want to be or and correct.

100%, you know. And that's okay. That's so, I mean, it's it's two parts of that is that we're all still learning, you know, we're all still growing and and developing. And then um, and then that's that's also the other part of it is that's the point, you know. Yeah, that's the point is to figure out who you are or where you are or where you need to be in that moment, you know.

And even who I thought I was yesterday may be different than who I am tomorrow. Correct. We're always evolving and changing and growing. That's that's the glory of being a human.

Yeah. Well, even if you look at the wine industry, I mean, just the wine industry uh as a whole, but in Texas and how it's changed. I mean, just to take, you know, five-year segments going back and how it shifted so much over that time. And who I was five years ago may not be the winery that I am tomorrow or the wines that I'm producing tomorrow.

And that's where I think that's the that's the beauty and the benefit of you know, sometimes when you go back and you taste past vintages, take that snapshot. It's kind of it's kind of like that, it's like that mirror you hold up and you're like, what was I doing then? Or or you could or it could be like photo album. Or it could be like, oh my gosh, what have I become? You know, who am I? You know, you could you could have, you know, depending on who it is or what time it is, you know, you're what it what you're having, you're like, gosh, I'm ashamed of, you know.

You look back at your old high school yearbook, you think, what was I thinking with that hairstyle?

Or, you know. I said that? I said that.

Oh no.

Your quote under your photo, right?

Why would I ever say that?

So, yeah. I mean, but I think that's uh like you say, I mean, when you look at okay, g wine, wine as a whole, it's changing. It's a it's a moving tart. And that's kind of alluding to it, but in a kind way, oftentimes it's it's viewed more derogatory or in a in a more derogatory fashion, you know, that people are drinking these RTDs and they're drinking, you know, then who's not drinking wine, or that's not real wine and these different things that we hear, we have to we have to tread lightly because the reality, you know, is that that's if that's where a large portion of growth, I mean, that's still seeing growth, you know, percentage-wise, I think it's all like a 21 point three percent year over year first quarter growth in those pre-packaged cocktails and things like that. So something's happening there. Yep. Take note, you know, don't be a fool. There's a market segment, right? And so I think those types of things are important for the industry to kind of be mindful of, for us to be mindful of too, you know, to see what what is it that what directions are consumers, the people who we're doing this for. You know, this is to not self-serving, like we said, if if we're doing it for the people, but there's also a pretty good portion of it that you kind of can do for yourself. Yeah. You when you think back to, you know, Renaissance era artists, we talked about art early on, right? Is that many of them didn't, they were not celebrated in their time. Yeah. You know, or you come you were commissioned as an artist and you worked like that for a family or for a benefactor or whatever, a courtier. You did that for your whole life. Yeah. And you maybe worked on one or two things. Um I think we if you if you think about it's maybe more Gothic style, but the uh cathedral, the Sagrada family was just finished, right? After what, a hundred years or something like that? And so you you know, you can put in so much time and energy and effort, but again, back to where you I'm doing it because I love what I do. Now, the understanding is that the the end result should be that the wine should be shared. You know, wine is for the people, it's for the for the masses. Um, it's cool to have one and then to go back and hold that photo album up or go back and taste to your cellar or whatever. But ultimately it's about because you love it, you know, it's about for the people, the people that need to be sharing this. Even we talk about special bottles, you know, you hold on to special bottles and all this stuff like that.

Oh, this time isn't, it's not the right time. It's not the right time.

Man, when is when is, you know? And and you know, you hold on to it too long and then it then it turns into trash, and you're like, gosh, I sure dreamed that.

I think I heard a statistic the other day that Van Gogh, think about an incredible painter that Van Gogh was. He sold one painting in his whole lifetime, and it wasn't even one of his famous ones that we look at today. One, you know, he did that because of his passion and his love for it. I thought about that when you were talking about that. It was nice to get to some of the business-to-business stuff, but I I think I really wanted to kind of paint that picture of what it looks like behind the scenes, pull that curtain back a little bit for the average consumer to understand what goes into that bottle they're drinking and kind of the service that you guys are providing to those wineries because the consumer's not coming to say just vintage and they're not seeing that on the bottle. Right. There's they're just going to the winery and seeing the what the sales presentation in the bottle they have there to to understand, pull that curtain back and see the Wizard of Oz back there, man, you know, pulling the levers and the things that are taking place to get from it's more, it's more complex than just, you know, I go to a winery.

Because there's the the politics side of it that's it's easy to start to denounce wineries that, oh, if you don't make your own, you're not a real winery. You know, I don't I don't think we should go that far off into it, but I also think that, you know, that there's a little bit of responsibility. The responsibility ultimately rests on the winery, but the consumer should, we would hope that they would be educated enough to decipher a little bit better, maybe. But then that's where you the responsibility is on the winery or tasting room to have the integrity to be very clear with the consumer. Oftentimes it's like, oh, you don't you don't make wine, you're not a right. Like that's kind of some of the the buzz. And so, and then also that's part of it too, is that consumers pick up on sound bites and pieces and parts. They don't pick up on all of it. So they'll be like, oh, I heard they don't make their own wine, so they're they're not authentic or they're trash or whatever. It's like, no, we we make the wine for this winery, and they don't have production, they have a small vineyard, but they're can they're committed to to excellence, to producing quality products. They believe, they believe in us, obviously, but they believe in what they're doing in this, the wine is an integral part of their family culture, starting with the late father who had a wine cellar, who loved wine, who grew up around it. The daughter who is stepping into the that role, you know, of managing the family ranch and things like that. And then her kids and their kids, uh, you know, kind of being involved in it with like thinking the grandkids are on the one of the labels and stuff like that. And the kids, the kids went to um a um Jesuit in Dallas, and so that's you know, some of these labels, they they meet, they tell yeah, there's a story. And that's where you go to a winery for, you know what I mean? Like, yes, you love I love Grenache, so I'm gonna drink some Grenache. I'm gonna go to this place and have this Grenache or whatever, whatever, whatever. But we talk about it a lot as like I or left a better one. I love Savien Blanc. I'm very particular on Sauvignon Blanc. Oh, Sauvignon Blanc is not created equal, and I will st I will die on that hill, Scott, right now. But the it may be like $15 now, but Conju Toro, Sauvignon Blanc in Chile on the coast, is still like, or Conci Toro, Sauvignon Blanc, that's a pretty inexpensive Sauvignon Blanc, it's still iconic for me because of where we had it at, what it meant, what it signifies, because it's that time capsule of a of a different space. And uh, and that's what wine is telling these stories and telling, you know, it's it's doing that for people.

The impact that a certain wine made on your life at a certain time and can hold true. Yep.

Like there's always that what's your aha moment wine? Which wine was you talked about the Merlot. What that turned me on, yeah. Okay, I get it. Sauvignon Blanc was that for me. It was Kim Crawford's Salvion Blanc. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Um, but it was like the first domino that fell. Oh, it makes sense, you know.

So and I and I think you you remember those things. We have we have so many more exponential neurons tied to uh smell than we do to sight and for memory memory neurons, right? So it's like wheeze don't use it, yeah, but we have a repository of data that's in there that's tied to like, oh yeah, that's why I like that. Oh yeah, that's why that was good, or oh that you know, we just don't tap into it because it's easy to use these, and uh, and that's what so much of this wine is about. Like we want to hear that story, and that story is gonna be tied to when I drink this wine, when I smell and taste this thing, man, Leif is sitting right there, and Juan Ignacio's right there, and Justin's right there, and Wes right there, and Ty's right there, and we're all here, and we're just yeah, I'm wearing my shirt, two buttons down, it's like we're having a big time, you know?

All those connections coming. Synapses.

Yeah. Smells bring back more memories quicker than any other thing. Yeah. Smell and taste in the senses. And just to dovetail onto what Michael just covered is like wine is is a massive universe, right? There's so much to learn. You probably can't learn it all in your lifetime. So don't worry about I need to know every everything there is to know about wine. You're not going to. There's so many different things about oak, there's so many different things about bottles, there's so many different things about cork. You start drilling down any of those, and it turns into this massive thing that years and years and years of study has gone into. And the glass shape, I mean, it's just the the amount of time and effort and thought and different nuances that are in wine. I mean, there's just the varieties that we drink, it's like 3,600 plus. It's phenomenal, but don't be scared of it because you're never gonna learn it all. You're gonna meet somebody that might be a master psalm that knows a heck of a lot. He still doesn't know it all, or she still doesn't know it all. And they're out looking for that new little thing that's just come out. There's a don't be intimidated. We've got new varieties that are coming out that so many people haven't tasted and are really unknown. So that's that's the key to wine. Don't be scared of it.

Well, it takes it takes so long for you before you get there because you get so used to you do the song and the dance. You put on the you put on the the arm.

You gotta do the thing, you know. Oh ambiance. Now I'm someone. Oh, you don't know this. Why do you swirl the glass? I had to learn how to swirl the glass.

Have you heard have you ever heard of this obscure small vineyard in Uruguay? I love to go there on the summers. Oh, you've never oh you never made three bottles of this one wine. I get the allocation of two, you know, and it's like I think that there's so much of that early on, and then even it's it's kind of it's hard because there's the fake it till you make it side of life, right? And then there's the just embrace it for what it is and day-to-day it side of life, you know, and then there's the you know, know how to know when to hold them and know when to fold them, kind of thing, is like all that is tied to this, and especially on the the production. I mean, I think it's like that on the consumer side too, because like you go in and you're like, we've seen it, you know. Oh yeah, I I love a good cab. What kind of what kind of cabernet is this Tempranillo? It's uh it's not it's not a cab. Yeah.

That I don't think what you're saying is I don't think you know what you mean.

You know what kind of cab is this Timper. But it's like it's bold is so sweet. Yeah. They just they can they can just be so sweet, sweet to me.

So people get caught up in the the whole snobbiness of it all to try to spear just enjoy the wine, drink it and enjoy it.

I'm sure you probably experienced that like in a tasting room. You get somebody somebody's gonna come in, they're gonna big lead you. Oh yeah, they're gonna one-up you. Oh, oh, you don't know? Oh, I know the owner, so you know I have to. I was doing barrel tastings the other day. You know, I know, I know I know Mr. Sage's.

Yeah. I know Mr. Sage's. Mr. Sage. Which we we talked to him the other day. We talked to him the other day. It's all I'm his best friend. I know the owner.

I had a special tour of Sage's Vineyard. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I know the owners here at Sage's Vineyard. Got to taste the grapes right there from the vine. It's great.

It's great. But so much of that is like, you know, I think that that's a great answer. I don't know if it's be used, but just like, you just get so the further you get into something, the more you're like, I don't know, man. I'm okay with not knowing. And the the part of the best, the best thing is gonna be to learn it, to learn something new. Let's learn together. Let's, you know. That's a hard thing for me. I'm gonna say us, but the hard thing kind of where we are now is like finding the balance point between people having an expectation of you for being the expert. Well, tell me what wine, and you said tell me what wines I should have, or tell me what I need or what I what I want. And as much as we we've gotten really good at being able to redirect those questions back to them, because we need to get your input to get this right answer out. But then we've also just, you know, some of it is like they just need us to tell them what to do. Tell me what what what what kind of wines do you like? I mean, I like them all. Wait, you narrow down for me. Tell me, you know, narrow it down a little bit, or what wine should I sell? Based off of our experience, now we can say that. And that's what they're coming for. Based off of our experience, you need classes of wines as opposed to I need to have these wines. And then it becomes The conversation, these classes, you you know, a dry crisp white and off-dry something. If you'd like, you can get a rose, you can get a medium or easy red, and then a heavier, bolder red. Your quantities will vary. Do you have any insight onto the clientele that you may or may not see, or do you have a preference as to which ones of these styles you would like to push more? You know, these are the kind of probing questions that it's call response now, as opposed to get these five wines, get some mini cases, get out of here.

See you hit the road. You know, because we want those our customers who are selling these wines, we want them to be excited about it. Right. And if they're excited about this wine and they put it the people that they're talking to are gonna know it. They don't have to tell them, they're just gonna know. And so then they're gonna start buying and drinking these wines. And so that's it just it's the snowball effect. Now, they will sell wines that they don't necessarily that aren't their style, but they still need to. I don't particularly care for a super sweet wine, but this one's a good one. And so if we get get that, then those will move.

So I mean it's and it's either or they might like sweet and just not like big bold reg or whatever the whatever the caveat is, but when we have more in-depth conversation as to which direction Texas is or isn't going, the challenges to those conversations or the reality is that we're still understanding the differences, like there's a night and day difference between a couple of years or two vintage. Now, granted, these are two different vineyards, but we've had the same or similar disparity on the same thing. Same vineyard, same grower, same year. Pow pow. Just different. Um, some some of it is variety driven. So you get stuff like Morvet that will have be kind of alternating, or you know, you might get high pigmented years or low pigmented years. You get variations when it comes to something like Syrah and how much yield you make it, different internodal lengths. So, how how do you prune it? How do you manage that?

You know, yeah, Syrah has a tendency to overcrop. And so if you don't manage that, then the years it'll give you a bunch, the next year it won't, because it self-manages, and so then it it'll turn alternate bearing if you're not if you're not paying attention.

We deal with a lot of that type of frontline, like we're the front first line of defense on like, I want a GSM.

Or what you know, or whatever, like in a 13 varietals that could go to a GSM, what are you talking about? Yeah.

What is they what do they mean? What do they mean?

So it's like okay. You know, so it's a flavor profile they're looking for, and you're trying to deduce that. Right.

And and then and then being able to explain some of those things as far as like, well, I really need a temperanillo because I need it's a popular rape in Texas, this and this, this, and this is what kind of Tempernillo?

Yeah. People recognize the name. Yeah. And there's a lot of people, customer base.

That's a reality you have to deal with, you know?

They might walk in and we tell so many people, we just like, yeah, well, if somebody walks in and says, I want a cab, to them that means red. You need to ask more questions and find out exactly what they're looking for. Yeah. Because it's cab's the most widely known variety. But if they come in and say Temperino, well, they've at least had a Temperanillo somewhere. Right. And if you've never seen them before, then it's like, let them try a Tempernillo. I mean, because it's because of the profile, right? Not necessarily the grape. And they can get very name-specific. So this one is still in bulk in a tank.

I just pulled a tank sample for us. So it's a it's a it's not a glamour's label.

It's the creek that runs back here. Oh, okay. It's one of the two creeks that makes Nakadochis. Nakadoch is this old keto Indian town. Yeah. They put a settlement in between the two creeks. Okay.

I think another thing too, it's important for consumers. When you go to a winery and you taste a good wine that you really like, ask. Ask questions. Where did the fruit come from? You know, where do you process your fruit? Where, you know, it's that's nothing wrong with asking those questions and and understanding and finding out about more what's behind the label of the bottle and what into it, you know.

That's great. I mean, I think that's what especially, you know, you're working behind a tasting bar and you you hey, these are our wines, or this is which one do you want now? Okay, yeah, okay, okay. A little bit of engagement like that can just go a long way to like really unlocking so much. And even, well, tell me, tell me when would you have this wine? Tell me how do I use this wine? How do I tell me tell me about so this this year you got it from this vineyard, or you know, next year you're gonna do a different vineyard, or what's going, you know. And that's where I feel like kind of personally conflicted in the in the ongoing wars of 100% text or not and all that kind of stuff like that. Is like, I get it, you know, like if there's not a clear differentiation mark, it's it should be a person that can stand behind and say, it's like this. If that's not there, I I get it. You know, but at the same time, it's like I think it also is a it hurts because I think there's the like that's why I kind of said the there's that negative stigma if we're not making your own stuff, then get the get out of here, you know.

All right, Michael and Wes truly are the wizards behind the curtain. And their commitment to being the brain behind these brands ensures that every bottle that comes out of their facility, whether it is a tiny ranch facility or a large producer, gets their expert touch and artistic quality. And you can learn more about their incredible work and the services that they offer at www.sageesvintage.com. They provide a range of services from custom crutch, even to their developing specialized sparkling wine production. And they've even started a front-facing brand of wines called Lanana. And they don't really have a front-facing facility that you could go in necessarily like you would in a winery tasting room. But if you go to something like Sage's Symposium or you run into Michael and Wes at any kind of a wine event or at some of our winery tasting rooms around this great state, make sure you tell them you heard about them on this podcast, Texas Under Vine. All right, now it's time for the reveal of my wine wanderer bottle. And throughout the episode, the interview that we had today, and throughout the interview that we had there at Sage's Vintage when I was there, Michael and Wes were constantly pouring all kinds of wines for me to try and drink while we were talking about these amazing facilities and the things that they're doing there. And some of the things they poured for me were some of their front-facing brand, Lanana. And they were able to let me try their Timper Neo. This is their 2022 Lanana Timperneo. This is such a great brand and such an amazing wine. And it is a fantastic representation of what these guys can do. Timpernillo is such a powerhouse in Texas. And this particular bottle, the Lanana, is actually named after a creek that defines the old Caddo Indian town of Nacadoches, where you will find Sage's vintage. This bottle really shows off that local character and Michael's expert feel for this vintage and this varietal. All right. Just as all these Texas wine growers from the Gulf Coast all the way up to the High Plains are always shifting because of the changing of the seasons, it's time for us to pack up our gear and head down to our next destination on the Texas wine trail. And if you're loving these deep dives, please consider supporting us on Patreon so we can keep stories like these coming to you. And if you're not there already, be sure to find us on YouTube as well. Like, follow, and subscribe to catch every moment of our vine tripping adventures. And for our YouTube comment prompt today, Vine Trippers, when you buy a bottle of Texas wine, how important is it for you to know who made the wine behind the scenes versus whose name is printed on the front label? Leave that comment down below and let me know your thoughts. And with that, my time is up. So don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and follow my socials to be notified anytime a new episode is released. And until next time, happy trails and bottoms up, y'all. Thanks for listening to Texas Undervine. We strive to provide you with the best information about wine businesses all over Texas. Be sure to check out our website at Texasundervine.com and follow us on our socials at Texas Undervine to stay up on all the upcoming episodes. Please email us with any suggestions or feedback. Also, contact us if you're interested in donating, sponsoring, or advertising on the podcast just to help us cover our expenses and bring even more great info to you in future episodes. Above all, travel safely and most especially, drink responsibly.