Doc Russ Kane - Bonus 5

[00:00:06] Howdy Vine Trippers, I wanted to take just a moment to talk to you about the Texas Wine Lover website and their phone app for both iPhones as well as Google devices.

[00:00:16] You can actually download this app, put it on your phone or just go to the website if you're not an app person.

[00:00:22] And if you ever want to go visit some of these great locations that we've been talking about in the podcast, this will give you great information about the place before you go.

[00:00:30] And you'll be able to find other wineries in the area so if you want to make a day of it, go see several other places as well.

[00:00:37] You can search by region, you can sort the listings, find ones that are kid friendly, family friendly, even ones that host RVs.

[00:00:44] All kinds of different sortable listings you can find there in that app and on the website.

[00:00:49] You can find other things as well in the area like restaurants, accommodations, maybe events that are going on at the different wineries.

[00:00:56] So it's your one-stop resource that goes hand in hand with this podcast to be able to find those great places to go visit.

[00:01:04] So check out the Texas Wine Lover website.

[00:01:07] It's TXWineLover.com or go to their app.

[00:01:11] You can find it on the Google Play Store or the Apple Store as well.

[00:01:14] Enjoy your trips among the vines and use that app.

[00:01:17] Welcome to Texas Under Vine, an exploratory podcast to scout out the best Texas wine country has to offer.

[00:01:47] I'm your wine guide, Scott, and I'm here to lead you on an auditory expedition to the vineyards and wineries across the great Lone Star State.

[00:01:56] Each episode will cover a different vineyard, winery, or wine-related business operating in Texas.

[00:02:01] You'll hear interviews, descriptions, and details about each location that will excite you to visit and experience them for yourself.

[00:02:09] Ready to plan a wine tour?

[00:02:10] Use these episodes to choose the most interesting spots for you and your friends to check out.

[00:02:15] Most of all, enjoy hearing about the rapidly growing wine industry in the state and what makes our wines and wineries the best.

[00:02:36] Howdy, Vine Trippers.

[00:02:37] Welcome to a very special bonus episode for the podcast.

[00:02:41] This is bonus episode number five, and I've got an extra special interview coming to you.

[00:02:47] As this summer, I was able to hang out and spend some time in the living room of the famous wineslinger, Dr. Russ Cain.

[00:02:56] So, I get to actually share with you and give you a little peek into some of the things that he's done, some of the books that he's written.

[00:03:03] He is a wine writer.

[00:03:05] And some of the classes that he's developed for the Texas wine industry.

[00:03:09] And just, you'll get to tap into this enormous wealth of information that he has to share with you and with all the listeners about the Texas wine industry.

[00:03:18] So, to get his start, Doc actually was a technical writer for many years.

[00:03:25] And around 2008, he started getting into his mind this idea for a book about the Texas wine industry.

[00:03:33] So, to help him get started with writing a book, he decided to start a blog about the Texas wine industry called Vintage Texas.

[00:03:41] And as part of his writings in this new blog, he started writing a blog post that was comparing the soils of the Texas high plains, which kind of had this reddish color to them.

[00:03:55] And he was comparing them to the soils of Kunawara, which is a famous wine region in Australia.

[00:04:02] And a famous wine writer from Australia actually blogged back at him from that blog entry.

[00:04:08] And in this blog back at him, he actually called or dubbed Dr. Russ Cain the wineslinger of Texas.

[00:04:16] And so, that's kind of how he got his name in this industry and how a lot of people know him.

[00:04:21] So, he continued writing the blog.

[00:04:24] He began traveling all over the state and visiting famous wine destinations, talking to famous people or influential people in the Texas wine industry.

[00:04:34] Some of the pioneers of where we are today.

[00:04:37] And he compiled all of those writings and those stories together into the book, The Wineslinger Chronicles.

[00:04:44] And that's the book he's most famous for.

[00:04:47] And as that book began to gain popularity and grow, it's been in several printings now, he actually got another idea.

[00:04:55] And he approached the Texas Wine School, which has got an office based there in Houston where Doc lives.

[00:05:01] And he approached them with this idea of creating a class about the Texas wine industry.

[00:05:07] And so, through his coordination with them, he wrote up a curriculum and developed the Specialist of Texas Wine class that is now actually taught through the Texas Wine School.

[00:05:18] I had the pleasure of taking that class this last spring.

[00:05:22] Very delightful class.

[00:05:23] You learn a lot through it.

[00:05:25] And it's really a blessing to have that.

[00:05:28] Really marking Texas as a major Texas wine region.

[00:05:31] Just like you find Specialists of Texas Wine.

[00:05:34] You'll also find Specialists of Bordeaux, Rioja, in places in Italy.

[00:05:39] There's all kinds of different Specialist type classes.

[00:05:42] And now Texas is one of those through the works of Dr. Kane.

[00:05:45] Now, based on the popularity of that class, people were clamoring for more.

[00:05:50] So, Dr. Kane actually sat down and put together even more materials to develop a more advanced Specialist of Texas Wine class.

[00:05:59] Kind of a second in the series, if you will, that you can take.

[00:06:03] And he's had that recently put together.

[00:06:06] And he is excited to announce that one of his friends that goes way back with him, Denise Clark, who is a famous wine expert and sommelier here in Texas, is going to take over the reins.

[00:06:18] And she's going to get the new title of Wine Slinger as she takes over teaching those Specialists of Texas Wine classes this fall.

[00:06:26] Freeing up Dr. Kane to pursue other ideas and other books and things that he's wanting to do.

[00:06:31] Now, in addition to the books and that class that I just spoke of, he has continued to write and post to his blog, Vintage Texas.

[00:06:38] And he has actually, a few years ago, started writing what he calls Tasting Stops, which sounds kind of familiar to our episodes here.

[00:06:48] What he does is he goes to different wineries and he writes all about them, tells you all about the location, what to expect when you visit there.

[00:06:57] So those would go hand in hand perfectly with these episodes, since that's kind of what I'm doing here in this podcast.

[00:07:03] And even more so, if there's a location that I have yet to cover here on the podcast that you're interested in, make sure you check out Vintage Texas.

[00:07:10] He may have hit it in one of his Tasting Stop posts there on that blog.

[00:07:15] So hopefully those two pieces can go hand in hand and you'll be able to reference both of them as you're out exploring this great wine industry here in Texas.

[00:07:23] As for what he's doing currently, in addition to posting to the blog, he is currently working on another book.

[00:07:30] And this book is going to be about the grape varietal Blanc de Bois, which is a hybrid grape varietal and is actually now the most planted grape in the state of Texas.

[00:07:41] And so he's really excited to go into some of the depths in the history of this grape and how it was developed and kind of some of its lineage and history from other grape varietals.

[00:07:51] And so he's really looking forward to getting that book out soon.

[00:07:54] So you'll want to be looking for that one too.

[00:07:56] Now this summer, I was able to actually travel down to Houston to visit the wineslinger himself.

[00:08:02] It was interesting because it was right in the aftermath, the week after Hurricane Beryl had rolled through that area this past summer.

[00:08:10] So there's a lot of still destruction and places.

[00:08:14] It was hard for me to find a place to stay because so many hotels and things didn't even have power at the time.

[00:08:19] But luckily, Doc Kane's house didn't suffer any major damage and still had power there.

[00:08:24] So I was able to sit down in his living room.

[00:08:27] We enjoyed a couple of glasses of Texas wine together and talked about all things Texas wine, about his history, about his books and those classes and his future with things and the state of the Texas wine industry.

[00:08:40] So instead of me just telling you all about it, why don't we hear directly from him?

[00:08:43] So let's go to that interview.

[00:08:52] All right.

[00:08:52] Howdy, my trippers.

[00:08:53] First, I'm here with Dr. Russ Kane of Vintage Texas.

[00:08:58] And I'm excited to tell you a little bit about some of his background and his history and have him tell us about some of his projects he's working on and his view on the state of the Texas wine industry.

[00:09:09] So, Doc, so tell me about this title, The Wineslinger.

[00:09:14] Well, I first want to say thank you for having me on your podcast.

[00:09:17] Yes.

[00:09:19] It's really a great service that you provide the industry and consumers.

[00:09:24] So I think – but anyway, I was kind of at the same point.

[00:09:28] Back in around 2008, I had sold my regular company.

[00:09:35] Okay.

[00:09:35] And I got this bug in my brain that I wanted to create the next book that the Texas wine industry needed.

[00:09:44] Because I've done so much technical writing through the years, over 300 technical papers and stuff like this.

[00:09:50] And so I started with – at the blog.

[00:09:56] And around that time, I met up with Denise Clark, who was doing the marketing work for Texas Department of Agriculture.

[00:10:05] And she was putting together a High Plains media tour.

[00:10:08] So when I was up there, I was just so impressed.

[00:10:11] You know, I had done so much reading of technical stuff on wine regions around the world.

[00:10:18] And when we went out to the Brownfield and over to Plains with the Newsoms, I was just totally shocked, almost to the point, of what that red sandy loam over porous caliche limestone was.

[00:10:35] Because I had just read so much and studied so much about the Kunawara in Australia, which has that same structure.

[00:10:44] Okay.

[00:10:45] Almost formed the same way.

[00:10:46] And so I came back and maybe the third or fourth blog I ever did, I wrote about this.

[00:10:52] Okay.

[00:10:52] Compared, you know, the High Plains to the Kunawara.

[00:10:56] And literally the next day after I posted the blog, I get Philip White, who's a wine writer from Sydney, Australia, blogging back at me, telling me that I have a bad case of Kunawara envy.

[00:11:11] And he must have done some searching on me because he finished his little write-up by calling me Doc Russ, Texas wineslinger.

[00:11:20] Ah.

[00:11:21] Ah.

[00:11:22] And, you know, it's not something I invented.

[00:11:26] It's something that was—

[00:11:27] Yeah.

[00:11:27] I was christened.

[00:11:29] And so when I got into the book project, the whole family was getting around to help me with ideas for, you know, naming the book.

[00:11:38] Okay.

[00:11:39] I figured I would just borrow the vintage Texas thing.

[00:11:42] But finally I said, I'm going to embrace this.

[00:11:45] You know, somebody's called me the Texas wineslinger.

[00:11:48] So let's call it Wineslinger Chronicles.

[00:11:52] And my son, who's in the movie business, said, no, you got to put the.

[00:11:57] Ah.

[00:11:57] So it was a true family experience.

[00:11:59] But that's how the Wineslinger book got its name.

[00:12:01] I love that.

[00:12:02] And that's how I got my name.

[00:12:03] Well, let's rewind for a second about—so how did you venture?

[00:12:08] You talked about a little bit leaving a business and starting this blog.

[00:12:12] So how did that all take place in the wine industry?

[00:12:15] Well, it's kind of interesting because both my wife and I are from restaurant families.

[00:12:20] Okay.

[00:12:21] Hospitality industry.

[00:12:22] She's a Cuellar who the Cuellars started El Chico.

[00:12:26] Oh, wow.

[00:12:27] Which is a small restaurant chain, you know.

[00:12:29] Yeah.

[00:12:29] And my father was one of three brothers.

[00:12:34] And back in the 30s, they started kind of a bar and grill thing.

[00:12:39] And the two brothers took the booze side of it.

[00:12:45] My father really didn't like that side, so he specialized in the food side.

[00:12:49] Okay.

[00:12:49] But when my brother and I were born, he did what he said got a real job.

[00:12:55] But in that process, he taught me a lot about cooking very early.

[00:13:01] You know, I was basically cooking dinner and other things by the time I got to high school.

[00:13:06] And so, you know, when I started, I graduated college, came down to Houston and started to work at Exxon.

[00:13:13] I started traveling the world and the engineering side.

[00:13:18] And I would gravitate to these wine places, you know, like a little place called Bordeaux or Burgundy.

[00:13:25] I think I've heard of those.

[00:13:26] Or Rioja, you know.

[00:13:29] And it was just a great experience.

[00:13:31] And I really loved it because I was so into the cooking.

[00:13:34] Now I had some experiences being in the places where these wines were being made, where the grapes were being grown.

[00:13:42] So that's kind of what started me, but it's always been a hobby.

[00:13:46] Okay.

[00:13:46] Right.

[00:13:47] And I know the year was 1995.

[00:13:51] My wife and I were sitting down talking, you know, we worked together in our business, you know, an engineering laboratory kind of thing.

[00:14:01] And we said, we have to find something to do in our spare time because we just talked business from morning to night.

[00:14:09] From the time we got up, the time we went to bed.

[00:14:11] So I said, well, we like wine, but we know we don't want to do a restaurant.

[00:14:18] And I've already had my own business and the ins and outs of that over 20 years.

[00:14:23] Yeah.

[00:14:23] I don't want to start a winery.

[00:14:25] And I'm not enough of, although I'm a 40 plus year gardener, I don't consider myself somebody who could do a full-time vineyard and do all that kind of stuff.

[00:14:35] So I said, well, tell you what, I'm going to write the next book that the Texas wine industry needs.

[00:14:41] I just sold my company.

[00:14:44] They had given me a two and a half year exclusion period where they had done their homework on me.

[00:14:50] They found probably more on me on the internet on wine because I was already doing a little bit of writing.

[00:14:57] And then I agreed to become a leadership person in the Wine Society of Texas when I was very young.

[00:15:07] And so they said, you got to sit out for two and a half years while we take your company and integrate it and all this kind of stuff.

[00:15:14] And literally, I didn't think that was going to go through.

[00:15:16] And overnight, they put me on the road to Timbuktu and other places.

[00:15:21] And so a lot of people in the Texas wine industry who knew me thought I died because I just vanished.

[00:15:27] Disappeared from the sea.

[00:15:29] But that's when I said, okay, I'm going to, I said, I read something about the Texas wine industry once.

[00:15:36] I'm going to check it out.

[00:15:37] I'm going to see what it is.

[00:15:38] So I went up to Old Town Spring and went to a winery, Red River Winery, I think it was called back then.

[00:15:46] And from there, I got a little brochure.

[00:15:49] And from there, I started the Houston chapter of the Wine Society of Texas.

[00:15:53] And from there, I became the director of the Wine Society of Texas.

[00:15:59] And that's when, you know, then the book project got in my head.

[00:16:04] Okay.

[00:16:04] I said, how am I going to do that?

[00:16:05] So I said, well, let's start a blog and I'll experiment writing because I've done so much, you know, technical writing.

[00:16:13] I'm sure people don't want to listen to me talk about wine from a technical perspective.

[00:16:17] Although I sometimes devolve into that.

[00:16:21] But then I just started creating stories for the blog.

[00:16:28] You know, typically 350 words, 500 words.

[00:16:30] And occasionally I would, I knew the book was going to have chapter lengths somewhere between 1500 and 2000.

[00:16:36] So I did some kind of marathon runs there occasionally.

[00:16:40] Not the sprints, but the longer format things.

[00:16:44] And so I started dropping those into the blog.

[00:16:47] And the beautiful part about the blog is the immediate feedback you get.

[00:16:53] You can tell what topics work.

[00:16:55] I even posted the blog and just changed the name.

[00:16:58] And it got more different.

[00:17:00] Interesting.

[00:17:01] Yeah.

[00:17:01] I learned so much at that point.

[00:17:03] Then I went to a wine bloggers conference.

[00:17:07] They actually had those back then.

[00:17:08] Yeah.

[00:17:09] And I learned something called blog to book.

[00:17:12] Okay.

[00:17:13] That's a B2B.

[00:17:16] A whole genre of things.

[00:17:17] Yeah.

[00:17:18] And it's really, okay, this is why I'm doing the blog.

[00:17:20] This is why I'm going to get my legs under me and I'm going to write and get experiences and find out what works.

[00:17:27] And it worked great.

[00:17:28] And then I got, actually from a lot of the content I had put on the blog, I got a hit from Texas Tech Press.

[00:17:37] Okay.

[00:17:56] University Press.

[00:17:57] I started visiting some of the old timers, visiting some of the old time places, going back to TB Munson up in Denison.

[00:18:09] And from there I started pulling some of the shorter pieces that could be expanded into chapters.

[00:18:15] And I ended up with 26 stories that are in the Wine Slinger Chronicles.

[00:18:20] Yeah.

[00:18:22] And that book has had legs.

[00:18:25] Let me tell you, it's gone through, I think, two hard copy printings.

[00:18:30] And now it's in a second print or third printing.

[00:18:33] It's a soft copy.

[00:18:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:35] And it's still on Amazon.

[00:18:37] And if people want to sign personalized copies, they can go to vinaghtexas.com.

[00:18:43] There you go.

[00:18:43] A little shameless promotion.

[00:18:45] Go for it.

[00:18:46] And, but anyway, so it really got everything started into what I'm doing now.

[00:18:53] You know, because, you know, where it went from there was I thought I wanted to pursue a master of wine.

[00:19:01] And the thing is I had so much of my own studies.

[00:19:05] You know, I'm a PhD engineer, researcher.

[00:19:08] So the first thing I did was I built a library of all the different wine regions and wine styles.

[00:19:15] And I just, you know, consumed it.

[00:19:17] You know, sucked it up like a vacuum cleaner.

[00:19:19] And so I didn't have a lot of formal education.

[00:19:23] I did get the first level court of master salier certification.

[00:19:31] And then I, okay, so what am I going to do?

[00:19:35] Do I have to go back to level one WSET?

[00:19:37] I said, well, there's a lot of people that know me right now, a couple of master salams and a master wine.

[00:19:43] And I admit Doug Frost, when I was writing the book, he did the, he's, he's both a master salam and a master of wine.

[00:19:53] And so he wrote the forward.

[00:19:55] Oh, nice.

[00:19:55] To the book.

[00:19:56] He's really big on local wines.

[00:19:58] But so anyway, you know, I, I didn't want to start from scratch.

[00:20:03] So I said, can you write me some kind of a letter?

[00:20:07] This is what I really thought I was going to go big time in the, in, in the, uh, master wine program.

[00:20:14] Well, the thing is I did, I jumped right in with both feet at, at the master salam classes.

[00:20:21] They were had out in California and it was really good.

[00:20:24] But the problem was when people, I think Jessica Dupuis did an article on me about doing that.

[00:20:30] I got people sending me their business plans to read.

[00:20:35] Okay.

[00:20:35] And I said, is this really what I want?

[00:20:38] I just sold my business.

[00:20:40] Do I want another business?

[00:20:42] Start a new thing.

[00:20:43] Yeah.

[00:20:43] So I said, oh, that's, that's not where I'm going.

[00:20:45] So I put a hold on, on that and said, but I like teaching.

[00:20:50] I like, uh, uh, making presentations.

[00:20:52] And so I said, actually here in Houston, about a mile away is a place called the Texas

[00:20:59] wine school that was started by, uh, an English book.

[00:21:04] Um, camera, what his name was right now.

[00:21:07] Senior moment.

[00:21:08] Yeah, it's okay.

[00:21:09] But you know, we, we got together and I said, I'd just written this book and I, you have

[00:21:13] these regional certifications, regional specialist certifications like Tuscany and Burgundy.

[00:21:20] And I said, I think I could put together for you a program of, uh, Texas as a major wine

[00:21:28] region.

[00:21:29] You know, we had just become the fifth largest wine producing state at that time.

[00:21:33] And so he said, yeah, that's great.

[00:21:35] You know, the book came out in 2012, I think.

[00:21:37] Okay.

[00:21:38] In 2014, we got together and said, we're going to do a Texas specialist of wine, uh, uh,

[00:21:45] program or a class, of course.

[00:21:47] Yeah.

[00:21:48] And we put out the advertisements.

[00:21:51] I promoted it on the blog.

[00:21:54] We got two people.

[00:21:56] It's always hard to start a new thing.

[00:21:58] Yeah.

[00:21:59] And, and, you know, it was before it's time.

[00:22:02] Right.

[00:22:03] But then, you know, we did it again next year and we had six people.

[00:22:06] Okay.

[00:22:07] Well, and then, and then 30% growth by the, by the second year, by the third year, rather

[00:22:13] we were getting classes that were anywhere from 15 to 30.

[00:22:17] Okay.

[00:22:17] And so it really hit.

[00:22:19] Yeah.

[00:22:19] Really getting that momentum.

[00:22:20] And that was around the time also when things like, uh, the Hill Country made the, uh, uh,

[00:22:27] you know, several best wine region to visit things.

[00:22:30] So it became more of a thing that people discussed around here too.

[00:22:35] So they wanted to learn about the Texas wine industry.

[00:22:37] So, you know, the first class that they started was, was that, and that's, that's still going.

[00:22:42] That's level one.

[00:22:44] And then about three years ago, I had a lot of these people.

[00:22:47] I think I've got somewhere around, uh, 350 to 400 different people who have become certified

[00:22:54] with the level one class.

[00:22:56] I believe they take a test and all that kind of stuff.

[00:22:58] And they were starting to bug me say, Hey, we were just sitting around.

[00:23:02] We'd like to get more certification.

[00:23:03] Can you put together a level two class?

[00:23:06] And so, you know, basically three years ago, I spent a whole year digging back in my books

[00:23:13] and articles and, uh, created the level two class.

[00:23:19] Okay.

[00:23:20] And did all the kinds of things they told me, because I always ask them questions.

[00:23:24] What more would you like to do?

[00:23:25] And some people wanted to do more involved tasting and, you know, blending.

[00:23:30] And I'm a big fan of, you know, blending, particularly in warm wine regions.

[00:23:35] That's why there's GSM.

[00:23:37] That's why, you know, Riojas are not just Tempranillo.

[00:23:40] Yes.

[00:23:41] You know, in, in warm regions, blends just do, do the best job.

[00:23:45] Because you can supplement different things and find where something's missing.

[00:23:48] So I threw that in and, and, uh, expanded the class a little bit.

[00:23:53] And, uh, yeah, it just kicked off.

[00:23:55] I think the first class we had about 15 people.

[00:23:58] Yeah.

[00:23:58] And we usually get about 10 to 20 somewhere in that, that range.

[00:24:01] And, and we get a lot of people from wineries, uh, even, you know, we, we've had a couple

[00:24:08] winery owners, more than a couple, probably several winery owners bring their top staff

[00:24:14] and they, and they come to the class.

[00:24:15] And, and so it's, it's, it's really caught on.

[00:24:18] And right now, uh, uh, uh, I mentioned, uh, Denise Clark, she, she, she, she's going

[00:24:23] to start teaching the classes in, in the fall.

[00:24:26] Oh, cool.

[00:24:27] So, and I'm going to explore a few other things too, but we'll talk about that whenever

[00:24:30] I, so as a, uh, I just got to say, I've actually read, uh, your Weislinger Chronicles

[00:24:37] book, purchased it off of Amazon myself.

[00:24:39] Didn't know about the vintage Texas option, or I would have done that.

[00:24:42] Um, enjoyed the book and it came in so useful for me because I loved reading.

[00:24:47] Uh, I, my episode 21 that I did was with Lost Oak and I got to interview Jim Evans.

[00:24:54] Oh yeah.

[00:24:54] And on my way up to the Dallas area, uh, I was perusing again, that Jack.

[00:25:00] After rereading it or theorizing myself, cause it was such a fun interview there with Jim.

[00:25:05] And it was great to hear, you know, beyond just, I could probably sit down with Jim and

[00:25:09] have him tell stories for three hours and just barely scratch the surface.

[00:25:13] So being able to not only hear from him, but to then hear, read your background and the

[00:25:18] stories that you tell through all of that, um, was fascinating.

[00:25:21] It just completed the picture for me.

[00:25:23] Well, you know, that, that, that, you just said something very interesting, you know,

[00:25:26] the very critical part of, uh, the creation of the Weislinger Chronicles.

[00:25:32] I have a, a, a writer friend who writes novels about Texas and stuff like this.

[00:25:37] And he said, we were on one of these media tours and he says, Russ, if you're going to

[00:25:42] write a Hawaiian book, I don't want no geeky junk book that nobody's ever going to read.

[00:25:49] Tell stories.

[00:25:51] And, and that's what I've really tried to capture there.

[00:25:54] I got 26 stories that kind of follow me around the state and some of the trips I've taken to

[00:26:00] other places like Southern France and Spain.

[00:26:03] So, you know, it, it, you know, I've had a lot of good input, a lot of good support from

[00:26:08] other people to get this transition from being a geeky technical reach research writer to

[00:26:15] more of a practical, uh, storyteller.

[00:26:19] person.

[00:26:19] Dale Robertson is another person who was the, uh, wine editor for the Chronicle for,

[00:26:24] for many, many years.

[00:26:26] Uh, you know, he, he also taught me, he says, if you read my column, I'm not, not give them,

[00:26:32] you know, this is the essence of toasted avocado leaves.

[00:26:35] He says, people don't want that.

[00:26:37] They, they, they basically want the story behind the wine and a wine needs a story.

[00:26:43] And, you know, that story can change each year.

[00:26:46] You can talk about the creation story.

[00:26:48] Yeah.

[00:26:49] Yeah.

[00:26:49] That's the beauty of my wine.

[00:26:50] It's not Coca-Cola here.

[00:26:52] So, uh, yeah.

[00:26:53] So anyway, I've had really good support from other people in the industry to get where I

[00:26:57] am, you know, today.

[00:26:59] I'm, uh, definitely a strong believer in stories.

[00:27:02] You know, if you look back on history, uh, it has the word story in it.

[00:27:07] Um, you know, history up until writing was all oral tradition and it was passed along story

[00:27:13] by story.

[00:27:14] You know, people sat around the fire and they told stories.

[00:27:17] We, I think we, as a people, we invest in, we love stories.

[00:27:21] Why are novels and movies so big?

[00:27:23] Cause we want to get into stories.

[00:27:24] And I think of a wine bottle as being a story in a bottle.

[00:27:28] You know, somebody one time told me it's a photograph in a bottle, which I like that too.

[00:27:32] But I like to think of it as it's just, there's a story in every single bottle, um, from the

[00:27:36] terroir I came from, from what happened during that year's vintage through the notes and the

[00:27:42] flavors that you get from that.

[00:27:43] And so I'm a, I'm a huge believer in listening to stories and that's what I think like to

[00:27:48] do with this podcast is hear your stories.

[00:27:50] Well, if I can maybe give you a couple of vignettes.

[00:27:53] Yes, please.

[00:27:54] That I think come from the, the wineslinger book is that, you know, some of these stories

[00:27:59] I had in my brain before I started because I had talked to people, but so many of them

[00:28:05] just evolved as I started to travel around.

[00:28:09] And, you know, probably one of the most amazing one, there's a story about TV Munson.

[00:28:13] Oh yeah.

[00:28:14] In there.

[00:28:15] And, uh, I was able to get a tasting of wine made from the same grapes that Munson had.

[00:28:23] Really?

[00:28:23] Uh, bread.

[00:28:25] Uh, uh, Roy Renfro, who was at, uh, Grayson College for a long time.

[00:28:29] And then CL Winters from, uh, Fairhaven, uh, vineyards up in East Texas, who was making

[00:28:36] wine from these.

[00:28:37] We kind of met up at the, uh, Venita, which is, uh, the TV Munson mansion.

[00:28:42] Okay.

[00:28:43] And, uh, we were sitting around a table like this and we had maybe four or five of, of

[00:28:49] wines made from the Munson grapes.

[00:28:52] And, uh, you know, it's, it's funny because Roy Renfro actually does something or he did

[00:28:59] something.

[00:29:00] Uh, I think he's retired now, but he would get dressed up in old garb and he'd kind of

[00:29:05] be like Munson.

[00:29:05] And, uh, and he, he, and a coauthor wrote probably the seminal book on TV Munson.

[00:29:11] But, uh, RL Winters brought a copy of Munson's book, the foundation of American grape culture.

[00:29:18] And as we're tasting here, he, he, he opens it up and he starts reading from what is basically

[00:29:27] a textbook on, uh, uh, uh, grape hybridizing native grapes.

[00:29:36] And he starts reading this thing and it's as close to a seance as I've ever been to,

[00:29:41] because the words of Munson were so much beyond just what a technical person would write.

[00:29:47] He, I call him one of Texas's few, uh, Renaissance men, because he was deeply religious, but not

[00:29:54] in a formal sense.

[00:29:56] He actually thought that what he was doing and hybridizing was like a creator, like he

[00:30:02] actually referred to himself as a creator.

[00:30:05] And so, you know, here, here, RL Winters is reading the words of Munson.

[00:30:10] And right now the hair on my arms is standing up because it, it was like Munson's in this room.

[00:30:16] Yeah.

[00:30:17] Because he just got louder and louder and boom, crescendoed up and theatrical production.

[00:30:23] It was, it was amazing.

[00:30:25] It was, it was, like I said, I could never have planned that, that, that was just not it.

[00:30:30] And, uh, so anyway, that's probably one of my stories, but I'll give you another short one.

[00:30:34] Sure.

[00:30:35] That, uh, went up to a, uh, wine bootcamp.

[00:30:40] Okay.

[00:30:41] That Dr. Roy Mitchell and, uh, who else?

[00:30:45] Somebody else was involved with it too.

[00:30:46] One of the early pioneers of the modern Texas wine industry.

[00:30:49] Yeah.

[00:30:49] And, and so, uh, we were, we were having a little after hour session and, and, uh, Roy brought

[00:30:58] a bottle of his, uh, sherry.

[00:31:01] Oh.

[00:31:02] Yeah.

[00:31:03] He made sherry.

[00:31:04] And what I learned in that little after hour session is that, uh, you know, some of the first

[00:31:11] Texas wine, modern Texas wines that were made were made by Dr. Roy Mitchell in the basement

[00:31:18] of the chemistry building where Doc McPherson taught.

[00:31:22] Both of them taught there.

[00:31:22] Uh-huh.

[00:31:23] And it's interesting because they had no license to make an alcoholic beverage on a university

[00:31:29] campus.

[00:31:29] Right.

[00:31:29] In the basement.

[00:31:31] But that's where it all started.

[00:31:32] And, uh, what, what Roy said was he, any extra wine he had, uh, he would put in a barrel.

[00:31:43] And, um, the only things, the only criteria he had was it had to be white.

[00:31:49] Okay.

[00:31:49] And it had to be, uh, vinifera.

[00:31:52] It had to be European.

[00:31:53] Parietals.

[00:31:54] Yeah.

[00:31:54] And so he, he saved this year after year.

[00:31:58] And, you know, if you know what sherry is based on is something called a solera where

[00:32:03] you only take so much out and you put so much in.

[00:32:06] And this just captivated my brain because here I said, here in a bottle, we have a taste of

[00:32:15] time.

[00:32:16] Yes.

[00:32:16] It's, it, there are atoms of those wine or molecules that are from those first wines

[00:32:25] that were made.

[00:32:26] They never go away to zero.

[00:32:29] So I, I really, I've, I've told so many people that story because if you can still find it,

[00:32:34] he's, he's, he's passed now too, but, but if you have one, don't, don't dump it because

[00:32:39] it only gets better.

[00:32:40] Well, I got to enjoy, speaking of Dr. McPherson, uh, I got to enjoy a little bit of Kim McPherson's

[00:32:46] sherry when I went to visit him a couple of episodes ago and, uh, very good stuff.

[00:32:51] I'm a big sherry fan for sure.

[00:32:53] Oh yeah.

[00:32:54] Yeah.

[00:32:54] Yeah.

[00:32:54] Yeah.

[00:32:55] No, it's, it's, it's, it's really interesting.

[00:32:56] Kim, Kim is a very interesting fellow.

[00:32:58] I mean, uh, once you've met Doc, I think you can understand some of Kim because, you know,

[00:33:05] I hear, uh, I, you know, I was, I could hear, I heard, I should say, uh, a presentation

[00:33:11] Doc McPherson made probably three, four years before he passed.

[00:33:16] There was a master's session put together by Neil Newsom up in the high, high plains.

[00:33:22] And, you know, he, he, he, he was a rabble rouser.

[00:33:28] Yeah.

[00:33:28] He would get people to do things that he wanted to do.

[00:33:32] You know, he, he, he, he's an instigator.

[00:33:34] He's an instigator.

[00:33:35] He, he, uh, he, he, he, he told, told the crowd that, you know, basically the, the whole

[00:33:42] wine thing started because the, uh, the Dean or the president of the university came around

[00:33:48] and said, you know, to all the big instructors, you have to do research.

[00:33:53] And Doc looks back at him in a typical twang.

[00:33:56] He says, research, what am I going to do research on?

[00:34:00] Well, the next morning he came in and he had all the chemistry people looking at doing research

[00:34:07] on wine.

[00:34:08] That's how, how it started.

[00:34:09] And then, you know, um, Bobby Cox was around at that time and Neil Newsom and a few other

[00:34:15] people.

[00:34:16] Doc said, we got to go to California.

[00:34:18] We got to take a road trip to California.

[00:34:20] So everybody, oh, sure.

[00:34:21] Sure.

[00:34:22] Let's, let's go.

[00:34:23] He'll, he'll drive.

[00:34:24] We'll go.

[00:34:25] Well, he, he, uh, pulled up and he sits back in the backseat of Bobby Cox's car and says,

[00:34:30] okay, we're ready to go.

[00:34:32] He wasn't going to drive, but he got everybody to go out to California.

[00:34:36] And so, you know, Kim has a lot of that influence, that experience.

[00:34:40] Yeah.

[00:34:45] Because it's, you know, he can be a cantankerous lot and a lot of people he says don't like

[00:34:51] him because he tells them the truth.

[00:34:53] He's polarizing in that way.

[00:34:55] Where, where we're doing good, where we're doing bad.

[00:34:57] So got to read it.

[00:34:59] Yeah.

[00:35:00] It's in wineslinger chronicles.

[00:35:01] I wonder how many students probably got wind that, Hey, they're making bathtub wine in

[00:35:05] the basement of the building.

[00:35:07] Let's get down there.

[00:35:07] I don't know.

[00:35:08] I don't know, but it's just really sounds interesting.

[00:35:11] But, you know, the other thing that's, that's equally amazing to me having done all those

[00:35:15] stories is visiting with, uh, uh, Dr. Bobby Smith.

[00:35:21] He, he was up at, uh, uh, his winery in Weatherford, which is in a dry County or was in

[00:35:27] a dry County.

[00:35:27] And he had everything going.

[00:35:30] He was making wine till he realized he couldn't sell it because he was in a dry County.

[00:35:36] So he, he made a visit down to Austin and he, he called a few consultants in different

[00:35:43] states and stuff.

[00:35:44] We had no laws for distribution or, or sales.

[00:35:50] And literally on the drive from going from Dallas, Fort Worth to Austin, he comes up with this

[00:35:57] plan.

[00:35:57] Okay.

[00:35:58] I'm making the wine over here in a dry County, but I'm going to have a tasting room in a

[00:36:03] wet County.

[00:36:04] I'm going to sell it in bond to my tasting room and we're going to sell it in.

[00:36:09] From the tasting room.

[00:36:10] In the, in the wet County.

[00:36:11] Yes.

[00:36:12] And it wasn't until that day that there was a way to do this.

[00:36:15] Okay.

[00:36:16] That was like, it was the farm winery bill, uh, of what?

[00:36:23] 1978.

[00:36:23] Okay.

[00:36:24] It was really early.

[00:36:26] So yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's amazing how much, uh, stuff has happened.

[00:36:32] Yeah.

[00:36:33] You know, in, in 2001, we had the constitutional amendment or the state constitutional amendment.

[00:36:39] And one of the things that's in there, which surprises so many people is that up until that

[00:36:45] constitutional amendment, the state legislature didn't even have the power to write laws for

[00:36:51] wineries.

[00:36:52] Really?

[00:36:53] So they, they were all of that stuff that was done early on was illegal.

[00:36:56] So they had to legalize it.

[00:36:57] Reverse it.

[00:36:58] Yeah.

[00:36:59] So, and, but the most amazing part about that, even more amazing than that is that, uh, uh,

[00:37:06] they, they, they, what, what they did was they gave wine a very special place in alcoholic

[00:37:14] beverages in Texas.

[00:37:16] Uh, they, they acknowledge the fact that it was a farm product.

[00:37:21] Okay.

[00:37:22] Agricultural.

[00:37:23] And no matter whether you made it, sold it, bought it in a wet or dry area for selling

[00:37:30] alcohol, it was legal.

[00:37:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:32] So it just flattened the plant field because most of the wineries were in dry areas back

[00:37:38] then.

[00:37:38] And so now, you know, in, in some, some Jewish addictions, it was the only alcoholic beverage

[00:37:45] you could legally buy.

[00:37:46] Oh, really?

[00:37:47] So it, it really catapulted.

[00:37:49] That was around 2001.

[00:37:51] Yeah.

[00:37:51] That's when you really see, you know, the number of wineries.

[00:37:54] Susan Cones, when she, I've heard she was a great proponent for the wine industry.

[00:37:57] The hockey stick on the number of, of wineries really.

[00:38:01] Kidding driving up.

[00:38:02] Yeah.

[00:38:02] Yeah.

[00:38:03] Yeah.

[00:38:03] Well, um, your website, Vintage Texas, um, you had talked about that you were looking at

[00:38:09] this blog to book and then you've got the books now.

[00:38:12] Um, have you continued with the blog?

[00:38:14] Does it still, do you still contribute to that today?

[00:38:17] What does the website look like?

[00:38:18] Yeah.

[00:38:18] I've, I've, I, after I wrote the book, I languished a little bit there.

[00:38:22] I didn't know exactly what I was going to do with it, but, but then I got the idea that

[00:38:26] it's, it's kind of like getting, telling people about what they could find if they went out

[00:38:32] to the wine country.

[00:38:34] Okay.

[00:38:34] You know, something, which a lot of this stuff, the average person doesn't know, you know,

[00:38:38] I still find today who doesn't even know that we make wine in Texas even though

[00:38:42] we're the fifth largest and we're winning all these, you know, major awards, not, not

[00:38:47] just goals, but, you know, double goals and platinum awards and best of shows.

[00:38:52] So I figured that was the good forum because I already had good readership, readership there.

[00:38:57] Yeah.

[00:38:57] And so, uh, I was visiting with the Denise Clark again.

[00:39:02] She's pretty savvy on the marketing side too.

[00:39:04] And so I said, you know, I'm looking for something on the blog that's more catchy than

[00:39:10] just Russ coming on and Doc Russ, you know, spewing whatever he feels like.

[00:39:16] So we, we talked about this, this, uh, concept of doing what I called tasting stops.

[00:39:22] Okay.

[00:39:22] It's, it's kind of like what you do on your blog is you let people know what it's like

[00:39:26] to drive up to a place and what they're going to feel and see and what the, what they're

[00:39:30] going to taste.

[00:39:30] Okay.

[00:39:31] And so I, I kind of, you know, started that concept about three years ago and it's really

[00:39:36] caught on nicely.

[00:39:38] And I try to do, you know, at least one or two blogs a week.

[00:39:42] Um, sometimes, uh, there's something newsy.

[00:39:46] I'll throw it in there, but I try to do at least one blog a week.

[00:39:49] Okay.

[00:39:49] Of, of something I'm creating.

[00:39:51] Interested in or researching.

[00:39:53] Because right now I've just visited, uh, Nolan Newsome at, uh, at, uh,

[00:39:57] Yeah, in Comfort.

[00:39:58] New Similion Comfort.

[00:39:59] And, uh, it really made me reflect on a story I wrote for a magazine back in 2016, 17, 15,

[00:40:10] around there.

[00:40:11] And it, it, it gives a little more context to how they got into the winery, the winery side

[00:40:19] of their business and how Nolan has played a critical part of that business.

[00:40:25] So, you know, I said, I'm going to resurrect part of that story.

[00:40:28] I'm going to do a tasting of two of their, their wines.

[00:40:32] So those, those kinds of opportunities are kind of what I like to find.

[00:40:36] Because the Newsoms are well known for, Neil, for it is the vineyards in the high plains and

[00:40:41] the grapes that provide to many of the wineries throughout Texas.

[00:40:44] And now they, they bottle and make their own wines from some of those grapes as well.

[00:40:48] Yeah.

[00:40:48] So he has some of the oldest Cabernet there is in, in, in the state, you know, 35, 40 years

[00:40:54] old.

[00:40:55] Yeah.

[00:40:55] Some has been replanted.

[00:40:56] Some has been regrown from roots.

[00:40:58] Yeah.

[00:40:58] So, yeah, it's, it's, it's, and really he's, he's provided great or the, or I should say

[00:41:04] now it's the Newsom family with Nolan taking a role on this thing that they sell grapes to

[00:41:11] the best wineries and winemakers we have in the state.

[00:41:14] So now that they're making their own winery, own wines, I think it's, it's, it's, it's really

[00:41:20] great, but they have a very interesting concept.

[00:41:22] They, what they do is they don't have winemaking facilities themselves.

[00:41:27] But what Nolan does is he goes around to the wineries where the winemakers they've had

[00:41:34] a really good relationship with and, and they like the wines they make.

[00:41:39] So what he'll do is they, they, they bottle it for, for Newsom vineyards.

[00:41:45] Nolan kind of gives them the specs on what he, the style he wants to get.

[00:41:49] And they make the wine and then they, they bottle it for them, you know, privately.

[00:41:56] Yeah.

[00:41:56] So it's, it's an interesting concept.

[00:41:58] You know, it's, it's, it's, it's used in California a lot.

[00:42:02] Okay.

[00:42:02] So it's, you know, you may have one winery, but they may have five brands.

[00:42:07] Yeah.

[00:42:07] Right.

[00:42:08] Well, that, uh, Tasting Stops is a great resource there.

[00:42:11] So for my listeners, if there is a winery you're interested in, and I haven't covered it

[00:42:16] yet on the podcast here, uh, make sure you check out vintage Texas and look and see me

[00:42:21] because doc Russ may have actually visited it already and, um, been there, written up

[00:42:25] a tasting stop for it.

[00:42:26] So, uh, until I can get there to do a podcast that can give you some more information there.

[00:42:30] I always love sharing more of that information together.

[00:42:32] I bet you travel a lot then all over the state to all these great places.

[00:42:36] I have, I don't tend to travel so much now that I'm getting up in age, but, uh, yeah,

[00:42:41] I, I, I still maintain my, my contacts.

[00:42:44] You know, I taught my level one and level two classes out at bending branch couple weeks

[00:42:49] ago.

[00:42:50] I had kind of curtailed that a lot during, uh, COVID and these were my first two live

[00:42:55] classes, but that really stimulated the zoom side of my classes.

[00:43:00] And I like to tell people, you know, Texas is, I mean, Texas wine is not just a Texas

[00:43:04] phenomenon.

[00:43:05] Now we, we have certified a Texas wine specialist in California, Colorado, and Louisiana.

[00:43:11] Okay.

[00:43:12] And it's all because I took the class on, on zoom.

[00:43:15] Really?

[00:43:15] That's great.

[00:43:16] Expanded that influence where you couldn't necessarily go in person.

[00:43:20] And then I guess you, do you ever get other writers for your blog or do you just do it all

[00:43:26] yourself?

[00:43:27] Occasionally I tend to, I have enough words in my brain where I almost can't find enough

[00:43:33] time to put them all down.

[00:43:34] So occasionally I bring a guest, uh, a guest blogger in.

[00:43:39] And so, uh, I, I still like to get out and I like to get around more.

[00:43:43] And, and, and that's why, you know, now that I've got help from, uh, uh, Denise Clark

[00:43:48] teaching some of the classes, uh, and, um, not doing some other projects like not doing,

[00:43:55] uh, legacy work, uh, like, uh, you know, a consulting work for my old business.

[00:44:00] I got a little more time to travel.

[00:44:01] So that's, that's what I'm going to try to do.

[00:44:04] Well, and I know that you have judged at some of the wine competitions.

[00:44:08] Do you cover a lot of those?

[00:44:09] Do you still judge at some of the wine competitions?

[00:44:11] I haven't judged in about three, four years.

[00:44:13] Okay.

[00:44:13] Just that, you know, I like to give, it's a, it, it, it takes stamina to be a wine judge.

[00:44:20] You know, you have to judge usually about 80 to a hundred wines over two days.

[00:44:26] Yeah.

[00:44:26] And, and that's a slog.

[00:44:28] Yeah.

[00:44:29] So it's a young, it's a younger person's game now.

[00:44:33] So I like to give them the opportunities to, to experience that.

[00:44:37] Okay.

[00:44:37] Because it's, it's something that you develop, you know, you, you know, when you're drinking

[00:44:42] wine, like we're doing this to not from bedding branch here, it's, it's something that I know

[00:44:46] I like, and, and it has all the qualities that I would like to be there.

[00:44:49] But when you taste blind, uh, you're, you're, you're, as a judge, you're supposed to extract

[00:44:58] your own personal likes and dislikes out.

[00:45:01] And you're judging like this, uh, to not, uh, for what it is.

[00:45:06] Yeah.

[00:45:07] Characteristics of to not.

[00:45:08] Yeah.

[00:45:09] And, and so I think, you know, a lot of younger judges haven't done it too many times.

[00:45:14] They, they don't understand that.

[00:45:16] And so they, they, as they get more experience, they, they start to understand.

[00:45:20] So I'm, I'm willing to give them that experience.

[00:45:22] I've, I've had my day for that.

[00:45:24] And I, I like the writing part.

[00:45:26] I'm going to try to do more writing.

[00:45:28] Uh, I've got a new book project I'm doing with, uh, Fran Pontash, who just retired from,

[00:45:35] uh, Texas AgriLife extension.

[00:45:37] Okay.

[00:45:38] She was the extension specialist for East Texas and Gulf, Gulf coast.

[00:45:44] Uh, she came up with the idea of doing a book on block Dubois.

[00:45:49] Oh, okay.

[00:45:50] It is, it is the number one planted white grape in Texas now.

[00:45:54] And I think, you know, I don't know if it'll be this year, next year or the year after, but

[00:45:59] it's probably going to be the most produced white wine in the state.

[00:46:04] It, it, it beats out from, from a planting standpoint.

[00:46:08] It's, it's more than Vignet, Rassan or Marsan or any of the white, white grapes.

[00:46:14] Cause you can plant it in a lot of different places.

[00:46:16] And I've seen it done in so many different forms, sparkling, dry, semi-dry.

[00:46:21] It's such a flexible grade when they use it in port and Madeira.

[00:46:25] So, so many different things that you can flexibly do with it.

[00:46:28] Yeah.

[00:46:28] And I think, you know, that's one of the things that were one of the missions for the book is

[00:46:32] so people to take it a little more seriously.

[00:46:34] Now that's reached this point of production and quality, you know, I remember back in,

[00:46:40] how it had to be late nineties, around 2000, I had my first block to bar and boy, it was

[00:46:46] rough stuff.

[00:46:48] But luckily, you know, at, at, uh, uh, Hack Winery, Raymond Hack and Jerry Watson out in,

[00:46:56] uh, uh, Saley, you know, they worked a lot on how to grow it, how to harvest it, uh, and

[00:47:02] how to make it in the winery into a palatable wine.

[00:47:06] And, and the great part is they've been so open.

[00:47:09] They've shared that knowledge with just about anybody who wants to talk to them.

[00:47:12] So I think block to bar is, is really part of the future in a bigger way, even than it's

[00:47:18] been in the past.

[00:47:20] So this, this book really, you know, part of my job is being a geeky kind of researchy

[00:47:25] guy.

[00:47:25] I, I, I volunteered to dive into what they call the pedigree of Blanc Dubois.

[00:47:33] Most of what we know here in Texas, it was, uh, the final crosses were made at the university

[00:47:41] of Florida.

[00:47:42] Right.

[00:47:43] By John Mortensen, who's a son of a Texan.

[00:47:46] Okay.

[00:47:47] So there's a little Texas tie back there.

[00:47:48] Tie, Texas tie back.

[00:47:49] And, and so, you know, and he did the final, I think four, uh, uh, generations of crosses

[00:47:57] to get it where it is today.

[00:48:00] But I did the deep dive.

[00:48:01] I went back 12 generations.

[00:48:04] Wow.

[00:48:05] And I found so much interesting stuff.

[00:48:08] You know, part of it being that it, we pretty much figured it had a strong musket component

[00:48:13] in its genes, but I found that it also has a very strong tie to Simeon, which is one of

[00:48:22] the blending grapes in white Bordeaux and also in, uh, Sauternes.

[00:48:27] Yeah.

[00:48:27] That's a, you know, you kind of get a feel for why, why Blanc Dubois has such a flexibility.

[00:48:32] You can make so many different wine, wine styles.

[00:48:35] And it's great for my listeners that don't know.

[00:48:37] It's great because it's, it's bred through French and American varietals to be resistant

[00:48:43] to Pierce's disease, which is a very big struggle in Texas, especially in the, uh, kind of wetter

[00:48:49] parts of the state, East Gulf coast, that kind of stuff.

[00:48:52] So it becomes a grape that can be planted really well in some of those areas that aren't

[00:48:55] as dry and, and have that big diagonal shift.

[00:48:58] So that is, that is true.

[00:49:00] That is true.

[00:49:00] As long as you know how to make it into wine.

[00:49:03] What are your, what are some of the other books?

[00:49:05] So we've talked about the Weislinger Chronicles and you're getting, you've got one on the

[00:49:09] burner right now for the Blanc Dubois.

[00:49:10] We don't know what the title's going to be yet, but yeah, we're working on that.

[00:49:14] Uh, the other book was the Hill Country Winery book.

[00:49:17] That was more or less a pictorial book with long extended captions, but it's kind of a

[00:49:24] combination, uh, pictorial history.

[00:49:26] You know, the Weislinger was really a reader's book.

[00:49:30] Well, I figured I needed something out there for people that like to look at pictures.

[00:49:33] Picture books.

[00:49:34] Yeah.

[00:49:34] And so that's why I was able to go back and find some of the historical pictures.

[00:49:38] And I started back with the early days and there's all these old pictures I could find

[00:49:42] and then work it into a modern day trail guide.

[00:49:45] Okay.

[00:49:45] Now I will say that since I wrote that, there are a lot more.

[00:49:50] It's been growing like crazy.

[00:49:51] In the Hill Country now.

[00:49:53] Yeah.

[00:49:53] But the historical part of this book is still gold as far as I am concerned.

[00:49:58] You know, you, you really see how it all kind of, it, it, it's all tethered back to things

[00:50:04] that happened up in North Texas, East Texas, South Texas, and all kind of came together

[00:50:08] around the Fredericksburg area.

[00:50:11] Yeah.

[00:50:12] That's really fascinating.

[00:50:13] I got to take your specialist of Texas wine course through zoom.

[00:50:17] Uh, and that's how we met.

[00:50:18] And, uh, I loved some of the history that you were able and some of those photographs

[00:50:21] that you showed in the course and all of that, getting to hear all that.

[00:50:24] So, um, if, if somebody is interested in that specialist Texas wine class, uh, how do they

[00:50:29] take it?

[00:50:30] How do they find more information about it?

[00:50:31] Well, basically it's run through the, the Texas wine school.

[00:50:36] So the Texas wine school.com, uh, they have a website that has a full listing and schedule

[00:50:42] for all of their classes.

[00:50:43] They, they do the, the, all the levels of WSCT and they have several regional specialties.

[00:50:52] Uh, like my, uh, uh, job is, you know, to care, to teach a Texas as a wine region.

[00:51:00] They also have, you know, uh, Tuscany and Burgundy and all these other places.

[00:51:05] Rioja, Spanish.

[00:51:06] Yeah.

[00:51:06] So, you know, that, that's where I would go and you can see the course all for us.

[00:51:11] And then, as you said, they can either, there's options to take it live and in person at some

[00:51:15] places or through zoom.

[00:51:17] Yep.

[00:51:17] That's kind of the game plan.

[00:51:19] Okay.

[00:51:19] I did the zoom version, which is great because, um, you don't have to worry about going anywhere.

[00:51:24] And, and the wine school sends you six bottles of wine.

[00:51:27] I was about to say.

[00:51:27] Yeah.

[00:51:27] And I got, that's a good perk.

[00:51:29] I got a shipment of wine through that.

[00:51:30] I got a copy of your book, the wineslinger chronicles and got those wines and great.

[00:52:04] Great information as well.

[00:52:05] Hill country, but all the grapes are typically grown or most of them up in the high plains

[00:52:10] and why that is and the weather patterns and all the things that caused through millions

[00:52:14] of years, uh, the development of our land.

[00:52:17] Well, you know, when I started that, my game plan was to teach it just as if I was teaching

[00:52:24] Burgundy or Bordeaux.

[00:52:26] Okay.

[00:52:26] You know, you, you, you have all the elements of a terroir you have to deal with.

[00:52:31] You have to deal with, with the weather, the soil, the culture, the grapes, you know, and,

[00:52:38] and, you know, you really have to end, and the history, how it evolved.

[00:52:42] And particularly you don't realize until you actually do some deep studies of some of these

[00:52:48] areas, the styles of wines they, they make are, are very much connected, not only to the

[00:52:54] terroir, but to the culture of the food, the culinary experience.

[00:52:59] So, you know, it's, it's, that's kind of how, how I put together the, the, the Texas

[00:53:05] wine specialist classes.

[00:53:06] Teach it just like I would do if I taught, uh, uh, Burgundy.

[00:53:10] I teach geology, teach the climate.

[00:53:13] I teach the grapes.

[00:53:14] The local cuisine.

[00:53:15] Local cuisine.

[00:53:16] So, you know, it's, it's, it's credible.

[00:53:19] Yeah.

[00:53:20] So you've got, you developed the level one and then now you also have a level two.

[00:53:23] I've yet to take that one.

[00:53:24] I can't wait to take that one still.

[00:53:26] Um, do you foresee maybe even diving deeper even into maybe a level three at some point in

[00:53:31] the future?

[00:53:32] Well, I'm, I'm, I'm doing something right now and I'm going to see it's going to, if it's

[00:53:35] going to develop and in, into a course, uh, I've, I've agreed to do some wine in Texas,

[00:53:42] uh, food in Texas wine pairing classes at some of the, uh, restaurants in the hill country

[00:53:52] for the staff.

[00:53:53] Oh, okay.

[00:53:54] So I'm just putting one together now and we'll, we'll test drive that.

[00:53:59] See where that goes.

[00:54:00] See where it goes.

[00:54:01] I like that.

[00:54:02] Cause I used to do a lot of that kind of stuff back in, in the wine society of Texas days.

[00:54:07] Yeah.

[00:54:07] Put food and wine, uh, you know, dinners together, uh, uh, winemaker dinners and stuff like that.

[00:54:14] So I've, I've got, and then plus, you know, my background in food, I've got a lot to work,

[00:54:20] work from.

[00:54:21] Well, and we talked about stories a moment ago and you've had a lot of great experiences.

[00:54:26] You've met a lot of, uh, interesting people, a lot of fun experiences, I'm sure throughout

[00:54:31] this, this tour through Texas and through your deep dive into Texas.

[00:54:35] Do you have any kind of fun or really memorable stories that, that you can think of from your,

[00:54:39] your time here in Texas wine?

[00:54:42] Oh, I think it's, it's, it's really, you know, almost, you know, can't even separate them.

[00:54:47] They all kind of flow together, but I will say one of the most interesting experiences,

[00:54:52] uh, I was out of town.

[00:54:54] I was actually hiking in, uh, uh, Utah and I'm on this mountain climbing and my cell phone

[00:55:03] rings.

[00:55:04] And this was back when, uh, Twitter was first starting up and stuff like this.

[00:55:10] And okay.

[00:55:11] It said, Paul Bonarigo, the kill.

[00:55:15] So I answered the phone.

[00:55:16] Hey, Paul, what do you want?

[00:55:18] He says, Russ, Russ.

[00:55:20] Russ, I, I, I, I, I want to do something here.

[00:55:23] Okay.

[00:55:23] What do you want to do, Paul?

[00:55:25] I said, uh, well, I want to do a tasting of wines, blind tasting and Messina Hoff against

[00:55:34] others.

[00:55:34] And I want to do it on Twitter.

[00:55:36] And I said, you know, what's a Twitter?

[00:55:39] Well, I, I knew what Twitter was, but Paul didn't know what Twitter was, but he'd, he'd

[00:55:44] heard of it.

[00:55:45] And he, both he and Meryl are very marketing savvy.

[00:55:47] Yeah.

[00:55:48] Yeah.

[00:55:49] Uh, and so the interesting thing was that, you know, the first thing within through my

[00:55:53] mind is, you know, like, like there, there's this one company that has a, uh, a sign that

[00:55:59] says owner has brain damage or something.

[00:56:01] Yeah.

[00:56:01] I said, Paul, you really want to do this.

[00:56:03] You're, you're casting these things out into the Twitter verse.

[00:56:07] Right.

[00:56:08] You don't know how it's going to go.

[00:56:10] Exactly.

[00:56:10] No, no, I'm ready to do this.

[00:56:11] I'm ready to do this.

[00:56:12] So when I came back, I, I, I organized about, uh, oh, that we think we had about

[00:56:18] 20, uh, writers and, and, and, uh, wine people to go up there to college station.

[00:56:25] And, uh, we put these wines that had them poured blind and it was great.

[00:56:31] Then they're all tweeting.

[00:56:33] It was, it was kind of an early Twitter moment, but it's really successful.

[00:56:38] And again, you know, they, they've, they've embraced the social media part of this so much.

[00:56:43] And so they're, they, they're kind of like the poster children for marketing Texas wines.

[00:56:48] Yeah.

[00:56:49] Well, I'm a scene.

[00:56:50] A hop is doing it right.

[00:56:51] I mean, they've got incredible legacy there.

[00:56:53] I was recently, one of my past episodes, I was recently able to interview Paul jr.

[00:56:57] Yeah.

[00:56:57] There, uh, what they're doing at Messina Hoff.

[00:56:59] So I love, I love that.

[00:57:00] And all started with that legacy, what Paul and Merrill founded there.

[00:57:03] Yeah.

[00:57:04] And I think, you know, they, they, it's really interesting.

[00:57:06] You know, there's one point when, uh, Paul Victor, no, Paul Victor is the older, Paul Mitchell is, is, is, is the younger.

[00:57:14] Yeah.

[00:57:14] When he came back from his military service in the Marines, I think the last thing he wanted to do was take over the winery.

[00:57:22] But it's amazing.

[00:57:23] He's, he's just developed incredibly in that area, both, you know, both technically and he's just thrown himself into the business.

[00:57:32] And his wife, Karen.

[00:57:33] Karen.

[00:57:33] Yeah.

[00:57:34] Is, is like a next generation, uh, uh, Merrill.

[00:57:38] Yeah.

[00:57:39] She's, she's just an administrative marketing.

[00:57:41] Yeah.

[00:57:42] So yeah, it's, it's, it's on a very good, they've, they've really.

[00:57:47] And again, they've, uh, that during that transition, they really made the commitment to be a hundred percent Texas.

[00:57:53] You know, uh, unless there's a really bad year out there that they're not using out of state grapes.

[00:57:58] Well, we've talked a little bit about the status of Texas and how people still to this day don't really even know that I do fifth largest producer, uh, in the United States.

[00:58:09] But people still don't know of Texas.

[00:58:11] I did see a, uh, stat recently, whether it's true or not, you know, nine out of 10 stats are made up on the spot anyway.

[00:58:16] But 95% of Texas wines are consumed in the state.

[00:58:23] That's right.

[00:58:23] Um, and that's one of the reasons why we kind of tend to have this more boutique style wineries that people just travel to and go, we consume here rather than the distribution engine that we don't really have like California has for sure.

[00:58:34] Um, but what do you see is the current kind of state of the Texas wine industry and maybe even where we're headed, what the future might look like?

[00:58:42] Uh, where's it all going?

[00:58:43] That's an interesting question.

[00:58:44] It's going in a good direction.

[00:58:46] I will say because, you know, a couple of years ago we, we had a law, uh, that made Texas wine labeling more strict than the federal regulations, which is legal.

[00:59:00] You can't be less.

[00:59:01] Yeah.

[00:59:02] And we've always had this reputation on undeservingly, but it goes back to some of the early days where people just thought Texas wineries re-bottled California wine and stuff like that.

[00:59:15] Slap a new label on.

[00:59:17] But the changes that were made was, you know, if, if you were making, uh, Texas Appalachian wine, it has to be 75% Texas.

[00:59:28] That's basically what the federal requirements are.

[00:59:30] But if you're doing any other, uh, Appalachian, which could be county, could be multiple counties, could be ABAs, uh, and also, uh, vineyard designations, those all have to be a hundred percent Texas grapes.

[00:59:48] Gotcha.

[00:59:48] So that, I think over the few years now, it'll start to give more credibility.

[00:59:57] You know, you mentioned the fact is, you know, we don't export a lot.

[01:00:00] We're, we're out of the top five wine producers states.

[01:00:03] We're the only one that doesn't have an export model.

[01:00:06] Okay.

[01:00:07] You know, we, we have more of what I call the bluebell model.

[01:00:10] We, we, we drink all we can and we sell what's, what's left.

[01:00:14] I love that.

[01:00:14] Right.

[01:00:15] Yeah.

[01:00:15] So it's, it, it really fits because, you know, we, we've been struggling to get more grapes planted.

[01:00:22] You know, it's frankly easier to start a winery than it is to start growing grapes and selling grapes because it takes multiple years to get a commercial crop.

[01:00:30] So, you know, and we've been on such a, a, a burn on starting new wineries, which we're still on, but I think we're losing less grapes now.

[01:00:41] They're treating it more like a business.

[01:00:43] They're trying to, you know, be smart when it comes to the freeze, you know, using grapes that have a better way to avert that.

[01:00:52] Okay.

[01:00:53] Yeah.

[01:00:53] Like they, they bud later in the spring or that are more resistant to drought, root stocks.

[01:01:03] Yeah.

[01:01:03] Yeah.

[01:01:03] Yeah.

[01:01:03] And, and so there's, there's, there's a lot more thought going into that part of the business now.

[01:01:08] So we, we don't lose as many grapes as we used to, but we still need, you know, I, I've always said, if, if you're, I think, think we're up in the 9,000 acre, 9 to 10,000 acres.

[01:01:19] Now, I would say if we're in the 15 to 20,000 acres and it could happen, you know, in a matter of five to 10 years.

[01:01:27] So we will need an export model.

[01:01:31] Yeah.

[01:01:31] Cause you know, if you want to put it in perspective, uh, see if I can remember this, uh, uh, Paso Robles has about 250 wineries and they have 30,000 acres of grapes.

[01:01:42] Wow.

[01:01:44] So, you know, they can just be pushing out bottles out of the winery and exporting them to other States and stuff.

[01:01:50] So.

[01:01:50] When I was up visiting with Kim, he was telling me that this year he said, there's going to be more grapes than there are people buying that they're going to leave a lot of fruit hanging or on the ground.

[01:02:01] Cause there's just not enough demand for it at the moment.

[01:02:03] Well, the, the good thing though, is that we now have people doing custom crush.

[01:02:08] Yeah.

[01:02:08] And so they will pick up a lot of that.

[01:02:11] Okay.

[01:02:11] At, at a very reasonable price.

[01:02:13] Okay.

[01:02:14] Make it into wine.

[01:02:15] They have the tank space as much as tank space as they have.

[01:02:18] Sure.

[01:02:18] They will hold that for, for new wineries or maybe next year will be a horrible year.

[01:02:23] Yeah.

[01:02:23] You know?

[01:02:24] So, you know, I, I've been called crazy, uh, because back in 2011, I think it was, we didn't have one late spring freeze.

[01:02:35] We had, I think six late spring.

[01:02:38] And so, you know, we were only had like 30% of the grape production and there was, there was no white.

[01:02:47] Wow.

[01:02:48] It was devastation.

[01:02:49] And so, uh, I was actually, this was around the time I, I did my master wine training.

[01:02:55] Okay.

[01:02:56] Out in California.

[01:02:57] Somebody caught me on the phone and said, are you Russ Cain?

[01:03:00] I said, yeah, yeah.

[01:03:01] Uh, can you give me a vintage report?

[01:03:05] And the first thought through my mind is it must really been so bad that nobody wants to call this guy back, that they're down to me.

[01:03:13] A lowly.

[01:03:14] He's working his way down the list.

[01:03:16] Lowly writer.

[01:03:17] But, uh, yeah, I, I, okay.

[01:03:20] So, uh, I, I said, he asked me then, you know, what is Texas like?

[01:03:25] And I says, I thought a second.

[01:03:27] And again, I pulled in my knowledge and I said, we're like champagne.

[01:03:31] And, and now this guy's probably said, I've really got this loony guy.

[01:03:35] No, but I explained to him is that Texas is kind of on the edge of the wine producing realm on the warm side.

[01:03:45] Well, champagne is on the other side.

[01:03:47] So consequently every year is not a vintage year.

[01:03:50] You know, they have built their whole business model on, uh, multi-varietal.

[01:03:58] They have multiple grapes.

[01:04:00] They also make malt.

[01:04:01] Most of the wine they make is multi-vintage.

[01:04:04] It's non-vintage.

[01:04:05] And they have lots of tank space to, to keep, keep in cash.

[01:04:10] And again, I think that's going to be part of our business model going forward.

[01:04:14] We, we, we do more with blends, multi-varietal.

[01:04:18] And there's even wineries right now that are doing multi-vintage.

[01:04:21] Okay.

[01:04:22] Because they realize they're going to have good years.

[01:04:24] They're going to have bad years.

[01:04:25] Right.

[01:04:25] And they have to work between those two.

[01:04:27] Find a way to bridge that.

[01:04:28] Yeah.

[01:04:28] We, we have a continental climate and it's, it's more variable than California.

[01:04:32] Yeah.

[01:04:33] And so, you know, again, that's the way European regions, even Bordeaux has got five varieties.

[01:04:40] Rhone has a 14 or 15.

[01:04:43] Yeah.

[01:04:43] So again, they, they, you know, they play that from year to year.

[01:04:47] So that's what I think those are the lessons learned.

[01:04:50] Not that I'm saying we're like champagne.

[01:04:52] We're going to make sparkly wines, but you know, get a business model that works for that edge of the wine realm you live in.

[01:05:02] Yeah.

[01:05:02] Yeah.

[01:05:03] We, if you look at where that warm weather boundary is, it's, it's at about 70 degrees Fahrenheit.

[01:05:10] Okay.

[01:05:10] Now you're going to tell me that Texas isn't 70 degrees, but our average annual temperature is between 65 and 70 degrees.

[01:05:18] Really?

[01:05:19] Yeah.

[01:05:20] So it's, it's, we, you know, it, that's the way agricultural people tell temperature.

[01:05:25] At this point in July, it's hard to imagine that, but I agree that it averages that.

[01:05:29] I always tell people that, you know, another city other than Houston that has a 70 degree average annual temperature is San Diego.

[01:05:37] Really?

[01:05:38] Yeah.

[01:05:39] But it's completely.

[01:05:40] But it stays 70 there all the time.

[01:05:41] I've been to San Diego in July.

[01:05:43] Yeah.

[01:05:43] Yeah.

[01:05:43] Yeah.

[01:05:44] Well, so do you see that kind of being some of the biggest challenges right now to the Texas wine industry?

[01:05:50] Or what do you kind of foresee as some of the challenges that grape growers and wineries are facing?

[01:05:54] When I first started writing about Texas wine in the mid nineties, everything was about, you know, the perils of Pierce's disease.

[01:06:03] Yeah.

[01:06:03] And there's been a lot of progress made both in terms of the vineyard management and spray programs that you need that are totally different than other pestilence.

[01:06:16] And so, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's not discussed in such a paralytic way.

[01:06:26] Now, you know, now what we worry about is losing grapes and that's primarily because of the weather, the late spring freezes, the early winter freeze.

[01:06:38] Like we had a few years ago, learning, learning how to use your growing season.

[01:06:44] So the grapes kind of start off a little later and you don't overburden them.

[01:06:49] So they're working, you know, on Halloween night, trying to ripen those last few grapes.

[01:06:54] Yeah.

[01:06:55] So, you know, manage your production and then let the vines shut down.

[01:06:59] Yeah.

[01:06:59] So it's a lot of vineyard management.

[01:07:01] Plus we have a hybrid European vinifera now, what are called the Walker varieties.

[01:07:09] Yeah.

[01:07:10] It was done at UC Davis.

[01:07:12] They've, they've crossbred conventional wine grapes with another Texas native grape called Vitis Arizona.

[01:07:22] It's, it's native to Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and Mexico.

[01:07:26] And they've now bred these naturally, not GMO.

[01:07:31] They're not sticking salmon genes in the, in them with a CRISPR, but yeah, they're, they're, they're able to get up to 97% vinifera.

[01:07:43] Okay.

[01:07:44] From multiple crosses.

[01:07:45] Yeah.

[01:07:46] Only, only 3% Arizona and they have Pearson disease resistance and they make good quality wine.

[01:07:52] Yeah.

[01:07:53] So these are just getting out into the vineyard.

[01:07:55] Now I saw a post from Paul Bonarigo.

[01:07:57] He was saying that, Hey, those are just about ripe now.

[01:08:00] So they're, they're planning them in Brian College station.

[01:08:03] Yeah.

[01:08:04] And you got people out here near Sealy and industry and Columbus planning them too.

[01:08:09] Yeah.

[01:08:09] Well, at Hack yesterday, speaking with Kyle Johnston, their vineyard, they have there at the winery.

[01:08:15] They planted it with four of those Walker varietals.

[01:08:18] I kind of see how they go.

[01:08:19] It's kind of an experimental thing with them.

[01:08:20] But still experiment because it takes a long time to not only just make the grace, but then you got to see how you grow them in your particular location.

[01:08:28] I guess people in California have been pretty successful because they're fearful with Pierce's disease, with global warming, moving up north into their premium wine growing regions.

[01:08:39] Well, how do you foresee that?

[01:08:41] So I know that I interviewed Bob, Dr. Bob Young there at, at Bending Bridge speaking up.

[01:08:47] Yeah.

[01:08:47] Great to know that.

[01:08:48] Dr. Bob.

[01:08:49] Pierce to Bob.

[01:08:50] And I know they're doing a common air noir or common air noir.

[01:08:56] That's one of those Walker varietals.

[01:08:58] And I think he's getting really close to bottling that.

[01:09:01] But my question is from a consumer's perspective, they, because someone comes to the winery or sees them maybe on the shelf if they're even distributed and they see familiar things like Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, you know, oh, Cabernet Sauvignon.

[01:09:16] What is that?

[01:09:17] And I'm wondering about adaptation or do you think you foresee these more as being blended into other things or do you see them as standalone?

[01:09:25] I think for starters, if you're selling it, if you're doing a hand sell in a tasting room, it's an easier jump because you can explain the background and then you have some tastes to go with.

[01:09:38] But I think in the commercial side of it, the distribution side, it'll be first used as a blender and extender, what do you want to call it?

[01:09:47] And again, that helps to build a reputation.

[01:09:50] People start to see it on the back label, maybe, you know, 20%, one of the Walker varieties.

[01:09:58] Well, in your time as the wine slinger, what is, what's one of your most memorable bottles that you've been able to experience?

[01:10:08] You know, I'm a real fan of aging Texas wines.

[01:10:12] Okay.

[01:10:13] When people think it's crazy, but a lot of them age very, very well.

[01:10:18] But, you know, I go back to the days of Blue Mountain Winery in Fort Davis and that's still some of the best Cabernet.

[01:10:30] And because it's so cool there, it has more of a mid-Napa, Bordeaux climate because it's about a mile up.

[01:10:38] And so the nights are really cool.

[01:10:40] And so there's a lot of people now going back there to create some infrastructure, plant some new vineyards.

[01:10:47] And then, you know, that's probably high on my list because it's gone now.

[01:10:51] Yeah.

[01:10:52] But, you know, I'll tell you a story.

[01:10:54] Last fall, I was at a research symposium at Texas A&M in College Station.

[01:11:01] Okay.

[01:11:02] And they asked us to bring a bottle to share at the end.

[01:11:06] And I had a 2012 Bending Branch Tenant.

[01:11:11] Okay.

[01:11:12] Texas Tenant.

[01:11:13] And so, yeah, I didn't know how it was going to go.

[01:11:17] And that bottle was gone before any of the other bottles.

[01:11:21] Really?

[01:11:22] Because everybody was telling everybody, you got to try this stuff.

[01:11:24] It had just evolved so wonderfully.

[01:11:27] It was in a beautiful window.

[01:11:29] It was just perfect.

[01:11:30] It was, you know, it had all the classic Tenant.

[01:11:34] You know, it had this gravelly, earthy darkness to it.

[01:11:40] But it had crisp acidity to carry it and enough fruit to make it, you know, interesting.

[01:11:45] It just, it couldn't have, you know, aged better.

[01:11:49] I've also poured at a restaurant with Dale Robertson a bottle of Yaddo Estacato Bibiano that I had from 2012.

[01:12:06] Yeah.

[01:12:07] And that was in 2022.

[01:12:09] So it was, no, that's it.

[01:12:12] Yeah.

[01:12:12] No, that bottle was actually 2005.

[01:12:15] Oh, wow.

[01:12:16] I still have a 12 and I have a 7.

[01:12:19] And man, everybody was passing the glasses around to try them.

[01:12:23] Yeah.

[01:12:24] I almost didn't get any.

[01:12:26] But yeah, I think that's, that was, that I'd love to tell people this story because they, they sometimes write off the fact that, you know, it, it, it won't age.

[01:12:36] Yeah.

[01:12:36] And I think the one thing I like to tell them is if it's made well, it has good acidity.

[01:12:42] That's probably the, the, the, the, the story that people don't get usually is they think tannins, that's where it is.

[01:12:50] But it's the acidity is why French wine ages so well.

[01:12:54] So, you know, if it has the right chemistry in the bottle, it, they, they age as well as anywhere else.

[01:13:01] Well, and that's even bottle aging.

[01:13:03] You know, two of my favorite people are Dana Jean McLaughlin at Robert Clay.

[01:13:08] Oh yeah.

[01:13:08] Oh, he's going crazy with that.

[01:13:09] And he's loving this whole, I interviewed them for an episode and, and he's really big on, you know, five years, six years in barrel before they put him in.

[01:13:18] And, and he, he has, his goal, he says is to, when you buy the bottle, it's already been aged.

[01:13:22] It's ready at that point.

[01:13:24] I, I, I, I told him if you haven't had a bottle of, pardon me, if you haven't had a bottle of Vega Cecia.

[01:13:33] Yes.

[01:13:33] Which is a Spanish.

[01:13:36] Tempranillo.

[01:13:37] Tempranillo based wine.

[01:13:40] Get one because what you're doing is totally analogous to what they do.

[01:13:45] Okay.

[01:13:46] And, you know, six, eight years is nothing to them.

[01:13:49] Yeah.

[01:13:50] And, and, uh, um, I, I remember my Vega Cecia experience was totally by chance.

[01:13:55] I was up at Texom and, uh, Matt McGinnis from Austin.

[01:14:00] And I were sitting at this table at dinner with a bunch of other sports, I mean, uh, wine, wine writers.

[01:14:05] Yeah.

[01:14:06] And, you know, they put several bottles, just plunked them down on the table and right in front of us, they, they put a bottle and I kind of spun it around to face this.

[01:14:16] And I think both Matt and I had Google eyes because it was a Vega Cecia and, and man, it, it was just incredible.

[01:14:25] This was again, one of the best I've ever had.

[01:14:27] It's just, it's, it's aged so long and it's soft, but yet it's chewy and it's, it's got, you know, very special quality.

[01:14:35] Yeah.

[01:14:36] You know, this has had a lot of tender, loving care.

[01:14:39] So I said, Dan, you got to get yourself a bottle of this.

[01:14:42] Just appreciate what you're trying to do.

[01:14:44] Exactly.

[01:14:45] Somebody else has done too.

[01:14:46] Yeah.

[01:14:46] So don't think you're crazy.

[01:14:50] So, you know, that, those are some of them that I, that I like.

[01:14:53] The other thing that I find ages incredibly well is Rassan, Texas Rassan.

[01:14:58] Okay.

[01:14:58] As a white.

[01:14:59] Yeah.

[01:14:59] And if, if you, people don't normally think of, uh, whites to be ageable, but if you look at white Rhone wines, which are usually a blend of, you know, Rassan, either Grenache Blanc, Marassan.

[01:15:11] And Rassan, the ones that age the longest and the ones that score the highest scores and the ones that you have to pay the most for like hundreds of dollars are the ones that lead with Rassan.

[01:15:27] It's, it's, I think, you know, the good part about for Texas is that it, it buds out about two, three weeks later in the spring.

[01:15:36] So it's less affected by, uh, late spring freezes.

[01:15:39] So I think, you know, from that standpoint, I think it's real, uh, uh, really good that more people are starting to grow it.

[01:15:46] More people know what it is.

[01:15:47] And going back to that acidity for helping to preserve it.

[01:15:55] Yeah.

[01:15:57] McPherson Reserve, uh, Rassan, uh, about two, three years ago.

[01:16:01] And nobody could believe it that that, that, that was a 12 year old bottle in the bottle of wine.

[01:16:08] Wow.

[01:16:09] Yeah.

[01:16:09] And again, it's, it's the acidity.

[01:16:11] If the winemaker does it right.

[01:16:13] Now that's not an easy task because in Texas, we do have a problem with Texas, with the grapes ripening fast.

[01:16:19] And sometimes the acid drops off before the, the ripeness they want reaches.

[01:16:24] So to know how to play all of that and still make a really good quality wine.

[01:16:30] Uh, there's more winemakers who have that knowledge now than they did before.

[01:16:35] But you know, that, that Yano Estaccato bottle, you know, Greg Bruni was their winemaker for a long time.

[01:16:40] He joined us from California.

[01:16:42] His family was in the wine business forever.

[01:16:45] And so he comes with all this kind of knowledge.

[01:16:47] Heritage and legacy.

[01:16:48] And then now, uh, Jason Santani is the, the bearer of that, that knowledge.

[01:16:55] And they still make some incredibly wise.

[01:16:57] They make a lot of rosé, sweet rosé, you know, blush.

[01:17:00] But it sells.

[01:17:02] But, but the way Greg explained to me, he says, I don't mind selling all this blush wine because it gives me the cash to be able to make the wines.

[01:17:11] I want to make.

[01:17:12] Yep.

[01:17:13] That's what Matt said in our interview, similar to the sweet red and all that.

[01:17:16] Yep.

[01:17:17] Yeah.

[01:17:17] That's.

[01:17:18] Well, you find that niche, you find that market and you can have that there's, you know, as much as I'm not necessarily a sweet wine drinker myself per se, but there is a huge market that is.

[01:17:30] And so why can't we provide multiple things to these multiple tastes?

[01:17:34] Well, I mean, they, there's the, sometimes there's the unplanned opportunity when you get involved in this kind of stuff, because I, you know, I was at Cabernet Grill in.

[01:17:43] Oh yeah.

[01:17:44] In Fredericksburg.

[01:17:44] In Fredericksburg.

[01:17:45] Yeah.

[01:17:45] We're a chef, Ross and Burt Wells place.

[01:17:48] And they serve flights.

[01:17:50] Okay.

[01:17:51] And you can compose your own flight.

[01:17:53] And I ordered, I think my wife ordered a Buffalo enchiladas.

[01:17:59] You'd be hungry.

[01:18:00] So I said, okay, what am I going to do?

[01:18:02] I'm going to try a full bodied red.

[01:18:04] I'm going to try kind of a light, lighter bodied red and another red.

[01:18:11] I forget what I was doing there.

[01:18:12] But then I had this fourth one.

[01:18:14] What am I going to do?

[01:18:15] I says, well, pour something else.

[01:18:18] Pour, pour.

[01:18:20] Surprise me.

[01:18:21] Surprise me.

[01:18:21] So the fourth wine was a, a sparkling, uh, uh, Muscat Canelli.

[01:18:28] Oh, interesting.

[01:18:29] And you know what?

[01:18:30] Wine went best with those.

[01:18:32] The sparkling.

[01:18:33] The sparkling sweet wine.

[01:18:35] Really?

[01:18:35] Yeah.

[01:18:36] It's because it was spicy.

[01:18:37] Yeah.

[01:18:37] The spicy.

[01:18:38] Real spicy.

[01:18:39] You know, the, the full bodied red probably did the best of the reds, but then the other

[01:18:42] one was a little thinner, more tannic.

[01:18:44] Definitely not that.

[01:18:45] Yeah.

[01:18:46] And, but that last one was incredibly good with it.

[01:18:48] Yeah.

[01:18:49] It just, it just, you know.

[01:18:50] Balanced and everything.

[01:18:51] And you wouldn't necessarily think that other than if you know that, you know, you fight

[01:18:55] spice with sweet.

[01:18:56] Mm-hmm.

[01:18:57] You have an old cook.

[01:18:59] Yeah.

[01:18:59] If you put too much jalapeno in something.

[01:19:01] Put a little sweetness in.

[01:19:02] Put a little sweetness in.

[01:19:03] And see, I, food, food pairing and wine is kind of one of those things that it feels

[01:19:07] like higher level knowledge to me.

[01:19:09] I struggle with that, but I have heard that, um, sparkling pretty much

[01:19:12] is kind of a go-to for everything.

[01:19:14] Yeah.

[01:19:15] If you, if you're struggling to find something, go with sparkling because it's going to probably

[01:19:18] go with most anything.

[01:19:19] French fries to popcorn to fagwa.

[01:19:23] You can, of course, with anything.

[01:19:25] Well, what's next for the wineslinger?

[01:19:27] I know we've talked a little bit about, um, you know, your book project and possibly this

[01:19:31] new class that you're looking at and things like that, but what kind of things do you

[01:19:34] have on the radar for the future?

[01:19:36] Well, like I said, this, this book project, I'm ready.

[01:19:37] I, I've been doing it on a part-time basis while I've been, uh, playing with the advanced

[01:19:43] class because it, it only went live about a year and a half ago.

[01:19:46] So I, I've been molding it.

[01:19:49] It was a little unwieldy the way I brought it out.

[01:19:51] So I, I, the class you took in the spring, right?

[01:19:54] Yeah.

[01:19:54] I had my deducts in a row a lot, a lot more.

[01:19:57] So I've been working with that.

[01:19:58] But like I said, I wanted to do this Blatt-du-Bwa book because I feel really invested in the

[01:20:05] fact that, you know, I've tried to educate people how, what a good grape it is, even though

[01:20:11] it has, you know, it's a hybrid grape.

[01:20:15] Uh, another thing I learned, it actually has more vinifera in it than it has hybrid.

[01:20:21] Yeah.

[01:20:21] So, you know, you can see why it has good wine properties.

[01:20:24] So, you know, kind of, that's my next thing that I'm going to now probably next week, jump

[01:20:29] in with both, both feet.

[01:20:31] No, week after next, I got to go on vacation.

[01:20:34] I got a little vacation rest for, yeah.

[01:20:36] But then, uh, you know, like I said, I'm toying around with a wine and food pairing class

[01:20:41] based on Texas wines because there's so much out there on wine and food pairing, but, you

[01:20:46] know, they, they, they usually default to, oh, pair this with Chardonnay, pair this with

[01:20:51] Pinot Noir, which are two things that we really don't.

[01:20:53] Exactly.

[01:20:54] Yeah.

[01:20:54] And, and in the 80s.

[01:20:56] We're the Texas pairing guy.

[01:20:57] Yeah.

[01:20:58] And, and, and, and, and acknowledgement to Dan McLaughlin, I will never say Texas can't

[01:21:04] produce a Chardonnay.

[01:21:05] See, yeah, they do a great Chardonnay.

[01:21:07] And the, the one that Alphonse Dutson grew the Chardonnay.

[01:21:12] At Sintenburg?

[01:21:14] For Fall Creek.

[01:21:15] For Fall Creek.

[01:21:15] Yeah.

[01:21:16] Who won the best white wine out of the whole Texas rodeo, I mean, the Houston rodeo competition.

[01:21:21] So I've stopped saying that we can't do things.

[01:21:23] Well, and I would also throw out there a Degavino is planted Chardonnay and they're

[01:21:27] about to release four different Chardonnays, I think in the next year.

[01:21:31] So I'm excited to see how that turns out.

[01:21:33] It'll be interesting.

[01:21:33] Like I said, I don't know if I'm enough of a supporter to base my business model for

[01:21:38] my winery on it, but you know, if you're willing to play it by ear, you know, you know,

[01:21:45] nobody would have guessed Mason County would be where you'd be finding the best Chardonnay.

[01:21:49] Yeah.

[01:21:50] And Alphonse isn't, I don't think he's, he's in McCullough County, but it's right.

[01:21:54] Yeah.

[01:21:54] Just right there.

[01:21:55] Oh, Hickory Sands and all that.

[01:21:57] So nobody would have guessed that's where you'd find the best Chardonnay.

[01:22:00] But I'm interested in also to see how this Blue Mountain area of the Texas Davis Mountains

[01:22:08] is going to evolve.

[01:22:09] Yeah.

[01:22:10] Because that's some place where you really can do Bordeaux varieties and Chardonnay and

[01:22:15] stuff like that.

[01:22:16] Some great things.

[01:22:16] Yeah.

[01:22:17] So I'm anxious to live long enough to experience some of those wines.

[01:22:22] Awesome.

[01:22:22] And also the Walker varieties, the hybrids.

[01:22:26] I think, you know, there's so much going on right now.

[01:22:29] I kind of told somebody a few weeks ago, you know, I started going out to California and

[01:22:36] to Napa and Sonoma.

[01:22:37] I think it was 1980.

[01:22:40] And this was only four years after the judgment of Paris, where they, and, but yet it hadn't

[01:22:47] totally changed to what's out there today.

[01:22:49] You know, today you almost can't find a, a winery that's going to pour you anything other

[01:22:55] than Cab Merlot, Chardonnay, Pinot.

[01:22:57] Yeah.

[01:22:58] They've all kind of specialized in.

[01:23:01] Yeah.

[01:23:01] So you really can't.

[01:23:02] When I went out there back then, man, you could get a Gewurz Demeanory.

[01:23:05] You could get a sweet Shannon Blanc.

[01:23:07] You could get, you know, Zinfandel, you know, and I think that's the mode, you know, where's

[01:23:14] Texas today?

[01:23:15] We're kind of in that position, you know, when I talk about grape varieties for Texas, I

[01:23:24] have to include in that presentation, you know, at least 10, 12 varieties.

[01:23:31] And, and again, usually when I do that, somebody names one that I have on the list.

[01:23:35] This is my favorite one.

[01:23:36] That was probably me, the troublemaker of the glass.

[01:23:38] So, so, you know, I think, you know, this is a lot like the 1980s was and that 1980s

[01:23:44] period was a lot of where they really established their direction and their, their, their push

[01:23:50] to what they are today.

[01:23:52] And now they're very homogenized.

[01:23:54] So I think, you know, we're still in this.

[01:23:57] Discovery phase.

[01:23:58] Discovery phase.

[01:23:58] And it's great to be able to go to winery and taste these different wines and just get

[01:24:04] this, these nuances that probably in another 10, 20 years, we're not going to have.

[01:24:09] We'll be an established wine producing region.

[01:24:11] We'll know what grapes everybody's going to produce.

[01:24:14] We're in the wild west of the Texas wine industry.

[01:24:17] The one good part about it is, you know, we're larger than France.

[01:24:22] So we have a very diverse set of conditions where you can grow.

[01:24:26] So, you know, you know, the question a lot of people ask me is, well, what's the grape

[01:24:31] for Texas?

[01:24:32] You know, they've heard of, uh, Charte.

[01:24:34] I mean, they've heard of, uh, Vignet or they've heard of Tempranillo.

[01:24:38] I said, you tell me what the grape is for France.

[01:24:41] Exactly.

[01:24:42] And I'll tell you what the grape is for Texas.

[01:24:44] Yeah.

[01:24:45] It isn't going to be one grape.

[01:24:46] We're going to have at least a handful.

[01:24:49] My guess is it's going to be because of our diversity, about six or eight varieties.

[01:24:55] Yeah.

[01:24:56] And hopefully there'll be blends.

[01:25:06] So Doc brings up a great question that I honestly hear kind of frequently from people

[01:25:12] outside of the state who find out that we have this amazing wine industry here in Texas.

[01:25:16] And usually one of their first questions is, well, what's the grape of Texas?

[01:25:20] Or what is Texas known for, for their wine regions?

[01:25:23] And usually the thing I try to respond with is we're known for great wines and great people.

[01:25:29] And as Doc said, we don't really have a specialty yet.

[01:25:32] Um, that may come over time.

[01:25:34] Who knows where this industry is going to go, but we do have great wines and great people.

[01:25:39] And Doc is definitely one of those great people who is an influence and a supporter of the

[01:25:44] Texas wine industry.

[01:25:45] His books that he's written, the classes that he's teaching, all of these things should

[01:25:51] really be high up on your list of things to check out.

[01:25:54] If you really want to advance your knowledge and learn more about this number five wine

[01:25:59] producing state in the nation.

[01:26:01] So if you're really interested in learning more, make sure you go to his website.

[01:26:05] It's www.vintageTexas.com.

[01:26:09] There you're going to find his blog.

[01:26:11] You'll find things about those wine classes, the books, things like that.

[01:26:16] So you want to make sure and check that out.

[01:26:18] So you'll get all the good info from the wineslinger himself.

[01:26:21] And I have a special treat for all of the lucky listeners of this podcast.

[01:26:27] While I was there, I purchased a copy of the wineslinger Chronicles book and sat down and

[01:26:34] had the wineslinger himself autograph this copy.

[01:26:38] So he's actually gone in and autographed it for the listeners.

[01:26:41] And I'm going to give away this copy of the book to one of you lucky listeners out there.

[01:26:46] And there's a couple of ways that you can go about entering the contest.

[01:26:50] So what I'm going to do is starting today, running through the end of November, that's

[01:26:54] 2024 where we're at right now.

[01:26:56] So from now until the end of November, you have two ways that you can enter the contest

[01:27:01] to win this book and I will send it directly to you.

[01:27:04] One of those methods is free.

[01:27:06] It's easy.

[01:27:07] Just leave me a rating and review for this podcast, wherever you get the podcast.

[01:27:12] You should be able to go in.

[01:27:13] I'm not the kind of podcaster to tell you what rating you need to give me.

[01:27:17] You do what you think.

[01:27:18] But give me a rating and a review of the podcast.

[01:27:22] And the way I'll know that you did that is if you will take a screenshot of that review,

[01:27:27] you can email it to me at scott at texasundervine.com.

[01:27:31] That's your proof that you left your rating and review there.

[01:27:35] And I will put your name in the hopper for doing that.

[01:27:38] That can get you an entry.

[01:27:39] Now, the second way you can get an entry is if you become a paid subscriber to my monthly

[01:27:45] Patreon.

[01:27:46] So for those of you that don't know, I actually have a Patreon site.

[01:27:49] If you go to my website, it's www.texasundervine.com.

[01:27:54] If you'll go to the top, there's a link at the top called Become a Patron.

[01:27:58] That's going to take you to my Patreon site.

[01:28:00] You'll see there are various levels you can subscribe to.

[01:28:03] Each one gives you different benefits that you don't get outside of the podcast for the

[01:28:08] non-Patreon subscribers.

[01:28:09] You'll find things like bonus photos that I take when I'm at the winery.

[01:28:13] At another level, you'll get an actual video walkthrough of the winery narrated by yours

[01:28:18] truly when I'm out there doing my visit.

[01:28:21] You can also subscribe to a level that will give you something no one else has, advanced

[01:28:26] notice on where I'm going next.

[01:28:29] So you'll know what to expect before the episodes are actually released.

[01:28:33] But each of these different things not only gives you some benefits, but it really helps

[01:28:37] me to pay for my costs for producing this podcast.

[01:28:40] So anybody that becomes a paid subscriber at any of those paid levels will get an entry into

[01:28:46] the contest as well.

[01:28:47] So if you do that, you don't have to send me an email.

[01:28:50] I'll already get notification that you're a subscriber and I will give you an entry into

[01:28:55] the contest as well.

[01:28:56] And if you want to do both of those things, you can get two entries into the contest.

[01:29:00] Now at the end of November, I'm going to do a drawing.

[01:29:03] So I will take all of those entries of people that left a rating and review and all the

[01:29:08] people that became paid subscribers from now until that time at the end of November.

[01:29:12] And I will draw randomly from those entries and whoever gets drawn will win this awesome

[01:29:19] signed copy of the Wineslinger Chronicles book.

[01:29:21] And I will put that directly in the mail to you with my thanks.

[01:29:25] So don't forget the two ways to enter for the book are leave a rating and review.

[01:29:30] Make sure you email your screenshot of that to me at scott at texasundervine.com.

[01:29:35] And then you could also become a Patreon subscriber, one of the paid subscribers per month.

[01:29:40] And that will actually get you an entry into the contest as well.

[01:29:44] Well, that brings me to the end of this fun bonus episode with the Wineslinger.

[01:29:49] And I've still got some great wine destinations to bring to you.

[01:29:52] Season two is getting ready to draw to a close at the end of November.

[01:29:56] And so I still have some other great destinations I have traveled to that I can't wait to bring you.

[01:30:01] So make sure you stay tuned in and you subscribe to the podcast.

[01:30:05] And in honor of October, Texas Wine Month, I hope you will join me in raising a glass,

[01:30:11] sipping on some amazing Texas wine,

[01:30:13] and toasting to this awesome wine region that we have here in the great state of Texas.

[01:30:18] And with that, my time is up.

[01:30:20] So don't forget, subscribe to the podcast and follow my socials to be notified anytime a new episode is released.

[01:30:27] And until next time, happy trails and bottoms up, y'all.

[01:30:35] Thanks for listening to Texas Undervine.

[01:30:37] We strive to provide you with the best information about wine businesses all over Texas.

[01:30:42] Be sure to check out our website at texasundervine.com

[01:30:46] and follow us on our socials at Texas Undervine to stay up on all the upcoming episodes.

[01:30:51] Please email us with any suggestions or feedback.

[01:30:54] Also, contact us if you're interested in donating, sponsoring, or advertising on the podcast

[01:30:59] just to help us cover our expenses and bring even more great info to you in future episodes.

[01:31:04] Above all, travel safely and most especially, drink responsibly.

[01:31:18] Howdy, Vine Trippers.

[01:31:19] Did you know that I now have a merchandise store for Texas Undervine?

[01:31:23] I only have a handful of limited items, but you can go check those out and wear your Texas Undervine swag

[01:31:28] if you'd like to tell all your friends about the great wine locations we have here in Texas

[01:31:33] and maybe get them interested in the podcast as well.

[01:31:35] So, there are things like t-shirts, there's a hoodie, there's a beanie, a ball cap, things like that.

[01:31:41] But one of the most exciting things I have right now is my limited time offer t-shirt.

[01:31:45] That's my season one t-shirt.

[01:31:47] So, this is your Tasting Through Texas, Texas Undervine season one t-shirt.

[01:31:51] It's only going to be available for a little short amount of time.

[01:31:54] On the back, it has all the different locations like a band tour t-shirt.

[01:31:58] So, this is a limited time item and you can go out and get it now.

[01:32:02] And one of the great things about that t-shirt is a portion of every sale goes to support the Texas Hill Country Winery Scholarship Fund.

[01:32:09] So, you know that by buying that t-shirt, you're also investing in the growing and flourishing of an amazing wine industry here in Texas

[01:32:17] and all of those people that are going to come and make it even better.

[01:32:20] Check out that merchandise store.

[01:32:22] It's on my website at texasundervine.com.

[01:32:24] Just go up to the top.

[01:32:25] You'll see the link for the merchandise store.

[01:32:28] You'll see you next time.